📍 📍 📍 📍 Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. I am here today with Laurel Roberts Meese.  Laurel is a licensed therapist with over a decade of experience working with high achievers, including executives, lawyers, healthcare workers, and entrepreneurs. Laurel began her career in sexual assault response, and she remains deeply passionate about supporting individuals on that journey.

A voracious lover of life, she strives to empower, inform, and inspire hope in those she works with. Laurel holds an MS in counseling psychology, is trained in EMDR trauma therapy, and has worked as a graduate professor at Pepperdine University. She’s the founder of Laurel Therapy Collective, where she leads a team of therapists specializing in anxiety, trauma, burnout, and couples therapy.

Laurel’s licensed in California, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Washington, and Florida. So welcome Laurel. 📍 Thank you for being here. Yeah,

a lot. That was a very long bio.

that’s right. I know, I’ve met some people send me their like paper versions and I’m like, it’s going to take

Yeah. I also hope I’m more fun. I hope, I hope I’m more fun than my bio makes me sound.

I know it’s kind of interesting like doing this work and also being public facing because it’s like it’s important to lead with credentials and credibility sometimes, but then also it’s like we’re still just people and we like to have fun too. Um, yeah,

Well, and I know that, I know that people have probably seen the, the topic on, you know, the podcast title and I’m kind of like, Oh man, that sounds like a bummer. And my intention is actually to have this be a very like,

We’ll make it sound simple,

inspiring, hope infused, you know, like we’re, it’s, we’re not going to make it a bummer.

We’re going to, make it a bummer. Make it real, but also, like, there’s, there’s so much hope. There’s so much healing and growth that can happen.

Yes,

And you can actually have better sex eventually after a traumatic experience. So,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I, I fully agree with you. I think, you know, humans are incredibly resilient. That’s one of my favorite parts about the work that I do, um, is getting to kind of, you know, see growth and transformation and it’s, it’s also just very cool working with people who are, like, willing to go there and willing to do the work on topics that are painful and sensitive, you know,

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, my clients are incredibly courageous people. I, I admire them so much. I’m so honored to be in their lives in this role, supporting them on, you know, the things that matter most to them.

Yeah. Yeah.

a cool job.

Well, it is a very cool job, you know, sometimes it’s interesting because I think people have so many assumptions sometimes about like what therapists or sex therapists or trauma therapy, you know, like what it must be like. And it’s not always the case. Um, but I would love to start with, and you had mentioned, you know, just giving people like a one on one on sexual assault and kind of like, what, what do they even need to understand about that topic?

Yeah. Um, so before I was a therapist, I worked in sexual assault response. I worked in a crisis center. I volunteered for rain. org. And, you know, the biggest takeaway, um, when you’re going through those early trainings is that sexual assault is not about sex. not about sex at all. It’s about power.

It is about someone exerting power, taking power, um, and just creating a power dynamic that is acted out through a sexual act. But it’s not really about sex. And when we think of it that way, it’s a little easier to wrap our heads around the Very normal reactions that people have to experiencing an assault.

And so I feel like that’s the foundation of this conversation, right? It’s not about sex, it’s about power. Now, of course, in sex, people are always experimenting with power dynamics. It just needs to be done consensually, right? So,

very different. Yes, very

Very different. Like, please, play with power dynamics. Like, but always with consent.

exactly. Good

Yeah. Yeah. LAUGHS

well that, yeah, that is interesting and I guess how did you kind of come to realize that? Because I do think that so many people still think sexual violence is about

Yeah. I mean, it was just explicitly said in all the trainings I was doing, like, sexual assault is not about sex. It’s about power. Uh, and you know, as, as many types of assault are non sexual assault, we don’t think of non sexual assault as being about someone’s face or about like, if they get punched in the face, like we don’t think

That’s kind of a good point.

Yeah. Right. Um, and, uh, so it was just like, just really repeated over and over. Like this isn’t about sex, but the impact. It has, is often on people’s sense of their sexual self and their feelings of safety and vulnerability around sex and, um, and what it means for their sex life going forward. Um, and, you know, of course, all of the socialized morality and value and purity stuff that is, you know, In the water of culture, you know, so it stirs all that up.

can we also define, like, what counts as sexual assault?

Mm hmm. Yeah So I’m really careful about language Some people really hate the r word and not all sexual assaults falls under that category but if you had a sexual experience that Left you confused or uncomfortable or feeling shaken or like, just really not sure if, if there was consent, um, that, that probably would fall under.

Now, I could definitely see there being some very consensual situations where there was confusion, but if, if there wasn’t kind of an explicit consent conversation,

Mm hmm.

um, It’s the emotional reaction. Feeling like, ooh, I don’t know about that. Um, because a lot of the time, People are really hesitant to describe what happened to them as a sexual assault because they have a very narrow understanding of what sexual assault is.

Like, oh, it’s only something that happens, like, in the basement of a frat house or something like that. And that’s, that’s really just not, that’s so limited. In the same way that many people have a very limited idea of what sex is,

Mm hmm.

um, we tend to really, um, you know, get too granular. So it’s about the emotional response.

It’s not about what actually happened. Um, when I was working in, unfortunately, it was called a rape crisis center. Um, I wish it was called something else because that word is really activating for people. Um, and I would do hospital accompaniments. So like going to the emergency room where they, um, Were treating someone that had experienced an assault, um, and, uh, a whole separate thing that there’s actually like emergency rooms have specially trained response teams.

They’re trained in a very, like, non, like, like a non as non invasive as possible. Like, how do you, you know, help someone who is seeking medical care? Feel okay, if they’re going to, um, get medical care and I would kind of be with these people as an advocate and sometimes, um, it was for something that was, you know, a major violent assault.

And sometimes, um, it was. It was, it was not something that would fall under, um, a typical conception of what sexual assault was. And the emotional reactions that I was seeing in that emergency room were just all across the board. Like some people that had like a really horrific, violent, very, in that narrow definition of assault, they were more composed and collected than someone who, like the friend of someone.

That had, was, was going through a medical exam. Um, so it really is about your internal emotional experience of it rather than like the mechanics of what happened.

That makes sense, because sometimes I think when we go through an experience that feels traumatic Often we’ll like minimize it or be like, well, it wasn’t that, or it wasn’t, and then we like, uh, hesitate to sort of claim the word, like, oh, I was assaulted or, you know, and I, I think that’s some of the issue around the word rape, but I’m also curious, um, with your insights, just since you probably have more experience with that, you know, what do you think it is that about the word rape that, that, uh, triggered the fall?

The word rape requires, you know, Anyone using it to describe their experience to kind of, um, accept a certain level of violation and lack of consent that may, like, that may be just too disturbing. Like, they may know that what happened to them wasn’t okay, but they don’t want it to get categorized with, um, like, kind of that.

Um,

Like severity kind of?

Yeah, that severity, they likely know the perpetrator and don’t want to associate that because most assaults are perpetrated by someone that the, the survivor knows. Um, so it just feels like it adds a level of intensity when they’re just like. Trying to get back to their baseline, like trying to like get back to normal emotional operation.

Yeah. That makes, that makes a ton of sense. It’s like, It seems like, in a way, the wording should be helpful or should be meant to be helpful, but I can see how the, the important thing is, like, honor your feelings, if labeling it any certain way is stressful for you, you don’t need to do that,

yeah, yeah. Well, and language is super powerful, right? Um, and in any context, in, in an ident and like a really positive identity con, uh, context like language can be amazing. So I always. Mirror the language that whoever I’m working with is using, and if they want to use the word rape, great, I will use that word.

And if they don’t, it’s often people use very vague language, like that thing that happened to me, or my experience in college, or whatever. Um, and that is fine too.

Yeah.

Yeah. Mm hmm.

whatever wording works for you. Um, and I, I think it’s interesting and just from what I’ve noticed, sometimes people after having some sort of sexual violence or assault feel like, uh, kind of back to normal, you know, for a while. And then it could be something that doesn’t come up until maybe they’re in a committed relationship

hmm. Or they see a movie or TV show, or they hear about something that happened to a friend or a family member, or, you know, there’s something on the news, like, um, you know, I think sometimes we overuse the word trigger these days, but, but with this topic, like, no, there, there are very much triggers out there.

of the word

Even certain body sensations can be triggering. Mm hmm. Mm

That’s interesting. I mean, do you have a sense of why it maybe doesn’t come up immediately and then like,

Mm hmm.

does it come up kind of because I need to deal with it or just because there’s a trigger? Like, what, what are your

Yeah, uh, so it’s super normal for people to kind of just put it on back burner just because they’re trying to reestablish normalcy. Super normal and, uh, with any trauma, by the way. And then once you’re kind of in a place of safety, let’s say you’re out of a certain relationship or you’re out of a certain environment or apartment or job or whatever, and then you have more safety.

With any kind of trauma, the higher your safety, the more you’re actually going to be able to deal with it. And um, all trauma is stored physically. Um, the tons of research on this, um, but, uh, particularly a physical trauma, like a sexual trauma. So, uh, if there is a physical trigger, um, It’s, it’s gonna come up, but, but yeah, uh, I really appreciate that you said, like, it doesn’t always come up right away

Yeah.

that’s really normal.

Yeah. I hear that from people quite a bit. Cause I also think it’s, it’s just scary. Yeah. To face head on and it’s simply at the beginning when you’re still just like shell shocked You might not think you have the bandwidth to deal with

Totally. And some people do, but yes, generally not. Generally there’s kind of just like, okay, let’s get back to normal. Let me like know that I’m okay. I can still go to class. I can still go to work. I can still hang out with my friends. Like, okay, I I’m still me. Okay.

Yeah, exactly

often actually what I see is like people like feeling really confused and violated by an experience, but not conceptualizing it.

As an assault and that it’s only later when someone’s like, wait, what, when they’re talking about it, like, yeah, that, that’s not okay that that happened. Like that was coercion or like someone saying, I’m so sorry that happened to you. And so I’m being like, oh yeah, yeah, that really wasn’t okay.

Right, right, and I think, I think we do have this narrow definition, like, this is what, you know, sexual assault looks like, and it’s this, like, stranger, and it’s violent, you know, and that, that’s not usually what I hear either, whether it’s from friends or clients who have gone through it, but, um, You said an important point that I want to go back to as well about, uh, trauma being stored in the body, and I would love to kind of help people understand that more.

So, like, what does that mean?

You asked for my, you know, my, my definition of what sexual assault is and This really goes back to my definition of what all trauma is, which is anything that creates a separation between the mind and the body. So for example, let’s say someone’s in a car accident. I’m going to use non sexual examples just so we don’t trigger anyone, right?

Sorry for people that have been in a car accident. Um,

that’s going to be triggered no matter what we say. Yeah,

Um, so let’s say,

turn us

Let’s say you’re in a car accident, and, like, thankfully, you’re mostly okay, everyone in the accident, but it’s still really upsetting. You can be sitting in your house, not driving, thinking about the car accident, and your body has a reaction.

Like, you logically know you are not in a car accident right now. You logically know you are safe.

Mm hmm.

But your body’s like, no, you’re not.

Yeah.

That’s trauma.

Yep.

It can also be anything that really negatively impacts your view of yourself or the world. So anything that makes you feel like, uh, I’m dirty, I’m bad, um, I’m unworthy, I’m not lovable, I am damaged, um, if, if you, you may logically know that you’re worthy and lovable, but the belief lives in the body.

Right. That makes sense.

That disconnect between what you logically know is true and what your body agrees with.

Right. That fits so well with the internal family systems of books that I do too, where it’s like, it’s like a part. It’s like, my self energy knows, like, and the logic knows, but like, this little part feels so wounded or traumatized that it’s just like, stuck in that energy, kind of.

and I actually think it’s, it’s a big part if it can take over your whole body. Like, yeah. Um, and I’m an EMDR therapist, which is a trauma therapy that tons of like IFS. I mean, EMDR and IFS go to go together like peanut butter and jelly. They’re great. And, um, Just again and again and again, I see, like, incredibly smart, successful people that, like, I logically know I’m not bad, but this keeps coming up.

And, uh, yeah, so, honestly, that’s my trauma litmus test. Does your body disagree with what you logically know is true?

I

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

we’re gonna have to save that as a clip later. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think that’s really helpful. And I mean, I know with IFS, as you do some healing work with parts, it can actually create physical changes in your body

Oh, yeah.

fascinating that someone might come to like one of us for help with, you know, a sex issue and wind up being like, oh, that knot in my back is gone.

You

the time. I see it all the time. Yeah. I mean, uh, there’s the, the number one book. If someone is feeling relatively grounded and resourced and wants to read about this trauma body connection, the number one book is Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score. Um, classic, but it can be dense.

It can be triggering to read just because you’re reading, you’re like, Oh yeah, I experienced that. So, um, Read it if you’re in like a grounded resourced place and you want to get a little nerdy and academic.

Yeah, it makes so much sense. Um, so I do want to talk a little bit today about what to do when you have a partner who has gone through some kind of sexual assault, um, maybe is in various stages of healing. So maybe it’s like, oh gosh, this just happened to them recently. They’re just kind of in that stage of like, I just want to be normal and function.

Or maybe they’ve actually started addressing it. Um, So what are your suggestions for people in those spots?

Broad, broad question. I love it. Let’s get into it. So, um, watch your language, like mirror their language about what happened to them, right? Um, show an openness, a willingness to talk with them about it and about Your sex life in general, um, always frame your responses as them, something happening to them because there can be so much self blame, um, just in, in the culture.

I mean, the question, what was she wearing is not appropriate ever. Like there is, there is nothing anyone could do that would warrant being assaulted, nothing. Right. So, um, the best response, if someone discloses, I’m so sorry that happened to you, to you. Um, and, and then being highly aware of power dynamics, right?

Um, in your relationship overall, and especially in your sex life. So, uh, There are two very common reactions in terms of like how it plays out in someone’s sex life to experiencing an assault. There are some people that actually become hypersexual and they, um, just are having all kinds of sex with, you know, You know, whoever they like, more power to them.

It is totally in their right to do that. And it can be really empowering. It’s often an attempt to reclaim their power, to feel in control of their body to say, Nope, I’m going to decide that I’m going to have a whole bunch of sex and lots of really experimental sex with different partners, completely normal and healthy reaction, um, as long as someone is being safe.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Um, yeah. And, um, risky sex as a reaction to sexual assault, we don’t want to encourage that. But if, if you can, if you are having tons of safe, safer sex, right, then, then great. And then also there are the people that kind of shut down sexually and they don’t want to engage in any sexual content or activity because it’s triggering.

They maybe don’t want to watch sexual content, maybe, you know, sex scenes in movies and TV shows are triggering. So both of these are completely normal reactions to sexual assault, right? These are normal reactions to an abnormal experience. So as a partner, being aware that either one of those is normal and okay and part of their process and perhaps not permanent, right?

I think that’s a key part

Yeah. Mhm.

People meet someone maybe when they’re hypersexual and are like, hey, you know, and then they do some healing work and realize that’s actually not great for me,

Yeah.

I’m changing now. And then the partner’s like, wait a second.

Yeah, yeah, totally normal. Um, if you know your partner is a survivor, um, We already talked about language, power, and control. They might want to be experimenting with power and control.

Yeah.

Don’t assume they need to be handled delicately, right? They may really not want that. Now, they may need that and want that, but it needs to be a conversation.

Don’t make assumptions. In fact, that could really frustrate them. It’s like, I told you that I had this experience and now you don’t want to have like, you know, the sex we used to have because you think I’m like, fragile and I’m not fragile, you know?

love that! You’re right. Like, because something happened to someone does not mean they’re fragile. That’s

Right. Yeah. No. If someone tells you they’re fragile, believe them, right?

That’s the key. Like, ask questions and then listen to the answers. So it’s like, in that sense, it’s not rocket science.

Yeah. And I mean, I’m, I’m just a fan of perhaps over communicating around sex. If you know that someone has experienced an assault, uh, and you know, being willing, the same conversations that you would have about experimenting, you can have them, but Trying new things and just knowing and immediately honoring any time your partner’s like, whoop, too much, I gotta stop, right?

Right. There’s a partner’s like, how do I? Help them feel more comfortable, you know talking about sex. What if it’s like, hey They’ve kind of gone that other direction and like shut down a bit. What can I do to kind of create the safe space?

Open, open questions, being willing to share your own, like, um, vulnerabilities and lead by example. Um, but in terms of like real practical tools, um, I’m sure on this show, you’ve talked about sensate focus before.

Not a ton, I don’t call it that way just because it’s like an academic term

Yeah.

Watch exercises. Yeah

Yeah. Touch. Excellent. Well, so first of all, if, if your partner has kind of shut down sexually, um, I know it can be really frustrating.

It can feel like an emotional disconnection. Um, but a sexual disconnection is not the same as an emotional disconnection. I think a lot of people mistakenly conflate the two. Um, there are couples that have an incredible emotional connection that don’t have a great sex life and vice versa.

And that’s a lot of who I see, the people who actually do have a great friendship, do have that connection, but there’s something going on that they haven’t quite been able to figure out with

Yes. Yeah. Intimacy, um, is, it looks so many different ways and, um, I don’t want to call out men specifically, but I’m, I’m gonna for, for this. I see men conflating sexual and emotional intimacy a little more often than women.

You know, and I think that makes sense because I feel like sex is one of the areas where men are allowed to have meat. Or something, or it’s like they’re allowed to identify with it, um, more so than maybe just the emotional needs. So

And man, our culture has done men such a disservice in not giving them examples of, like, deep meaningful friendship between men, normalizing men having emotional needs. Like, I am so sorry, men, that you are in a culture where this is the case.

do think it’s shifting though, like I’m starting to see, you know, more like podcasts and books and like men’s groups. Like someone just posted, and I’m still involved in the Chicago sit, uh, therapist communities, and someone was just like, my husband is like starting a men’s group for just like men because Having friendships and building connections.

I’m like, oh my god, I love this.

Yes, yes. Um, and you know, of course, sorry to, to women for having to live in a sexually violent culture, but we’re talking about men right now and also want to normalize, um, many, many men have experienced sexual assault and sexual abuse. So this is not just about women.

very true. Thank you. Um, and I think that it can even be harder for men to talk about it because they feel like they’re supposed to be tough and strong and not be victims, whereas women, it’s like, we’re allowed to be more, like, fragile or delicate or something, you know? Um,

Men experience more confusion and destabilization around identity and masculinity as a result of sexual assault and may overcorrect and become a little too macho and, uh, you

that’s interesting. Kind of like, no, I’m not the victim. Watch me. Yeah. That

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

That makes sense to me regardless of gender, honestly. I think there could just be sort of like a rejecting of being a victim. Um. Which I also think there’s a difference between, like, honoring that you had an experience of being victimized versus, like, identifying as a victim.

Um, is that something that you see with people? Of, like, they get stuck in, like, more of a victim mindset sometimes? Or, you know, is it not as much of an issue?

I see more victim mindset around people that, uh, more like childhood sexual abuse, which like, they were a victim

Oh, yeah.

a kid, um, and, or if there are repeated assaults or there’s an attachment wound. It’s interesting, sometimes I actually need to backtrack with people and be like, no, you were a victim of a crime here.

And like, right? Like, and, and then they’re like, oh, yeah, that’s why I feel so bad. And then we, because there’s, there’s this journey from victim to survivor,

Right. That’s what I’m curious

Yes. And people are kind of at all different spaces on that journey. And, um. So some people. Just kind of have a linear path, although not, not really, not very many people do that

Yeah.

path.

Um, but admitting that there was a violation and that, you know, you experienced something traumatic. Once you’ve admitted it, then you can do that work towards being a survivor. And, uh, some of the coolest people I know are survivors. They’re doing amazing work. Okay. Um, they, uh, are helping others heal and, uh, and just even if you’re just helping a friend or family member or something, like I promised that this wouldn’t be all doom and gloom, like you, you actually can heal stronger.

Say more about that, because that does sound really good. Let’s all sign up for that. What does that program look like?

When you’ve had a boundary or your bodily autonomy violated.

Mm hmm.

You can get to a place where you are just unapologetic with it. Like, no, I am not going to do that. Like that, um, even just like, nope, I am not going to wear that bridesmaid dress because I do not like how it, I do not like how it feels on my body.

Or, um, no, I am, I’m not going to do this like crazy work trust fall exercise. Nope. Like, you know, like,

Well, that’s a great point and I’ve experienced that to some degree even with, um, my example is gonna be physical therapy. I know it sounds like random, but like I tore my ACL and I went to some like pre surgery physical therapy thing and she was just cranking on my knee and I was giving her, I was like, this is too much.

This is what you have to do. This is what I was just like. I was like, you know what? I actually don’t care if you’re in a position of authority. I’m leaving because this is my body and I trust what my body is saying. And so I do think we need to get to that point, especially as women, because we’re conditioned to be so polite,

Mm hmm. Mm

um, you know, that it’s like, what if like we care a little bit less about politeness and a little bit more about honoring our body signals, you know, because our bodies are very important.

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that example because there was a position of a person, a position of power crossing a boundary causing pain, causing discomfort. And you were just like, Nope, this is not for me. And, Gina Davis, the actress, uh, she has a book called, uh, dying of politeness.

Really? I didn’t know about this. That’s

And, and, uh,

start recommending.

Yeah, it’s a, the example she gives is as a kid, um, you know, politeness was just so it was like the, the only thing was being polite and she has this memory of being in the back seat and her grandpa who was, quite a bit older was driving and he kept veering into oncoming traffic and, uh, her grandmother would just be like, a little to the left, dear, to her.

I

Gina was like, we’re going to die because everyone in this car is just being polite. You know?

that’s a wild, that’s a wild example.

Yeah.

but it’s true. It’s true. Like the conditioning runs so deep that people could die because they’re being polite. Like we

Oh yeah.

aware.

I’ve, I’ve been in the back of an Uber being like, I need to say something. Oh my God. I don’t want to die. You know? Yep.

all have. And I think it’s good to realize, like have the awareness, like you just said in that moment of like, oh my gosh, I’m struggling to speak up and this is unsafe.

Yeah.

And it’s not easy. And I also want to validate the like fond response, you know, that it’s like.

Hmm.

If you feel like you’re going to cause more danger by speaking up, that’s like also valid, you

Totally. Yeah. I mean, being in the back of an Uber is a vulnerable place. It really is.

I don’t love taking them, partially because of control issues in general. Because I’m like, oh, they might have music I don’t like, they’re probably going to be on a phone call. I’m like sort of audio sensitive, but. Um, yeah.

I’m in LA, and we have those driverless cars here, the

Oh, you do? Oh

and I’m just like, would that be better? Because there isn’t a stranger in the car, you know? I don’t know, I haven’t

to try one for like a block or two just to try it.

Yeah. There’s actually one that, like, its waiting spot is right outside my house, and I’m just like, hmm, maybe.

Okay. Report back if you do. I’ll be curious.

Is the robot, does the robot make me feel safer than the strange man? Who knows?

Okay. Well, you know, now some of the services do have where you can prioritize women drivers.

Mm hmm. Yeah.

is a really nice option. Yeah. I

Mm hmm.

love that. Cause then you’re also like supporting other women, you

Mm hmm.

make money. Um, so, okay. That’s so interesting. And then my other question I guess would be for the person on the journey.

I think what I’m curious about is like, what are the stages of healing kind of? Is that a thing where you’re like, okay, um, I know I’ve done some healing, but I know I have more to do, but maybe I’m not even sure

Yeah.

to do next or what to look for.

I’m actually not aware of any, like, models. Like, academically studied models.

one.

I know. But also, like, it’s so personal. So, so I’m an EMDR therapist and I love EMDR. EMDR can be great for sexual trauma, but the thing is, um, Like, I see, this drives me insane. I see people, um, they’re like, Oh yeah, I just did EMDR on myself.

And I’m like, you did what? And, and they, they got some app that has like bilateral tones or clicking or something. I’m like, that’s not. That’s not EMDR. Like, it’s so customized to the individual and EMDR is actually way more than just the bilateral. Um, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, EMDR is a very cool, but very cool treatment.

for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Yeah. And it’s, it has bilateral stimulation and I don’t know if we know why it works yet, but we know that it works.

Yeah, we know it works. There’s tons of research saying it works, and also, like, if you are researching it, it, like, it sounds insane, and it actually looks weird, too. It’s like, I’m gonna move my eyes and my trauma will go away. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

things in your hands, you know, like pulses your hands alternating this like little vibration

I also do, um, so I, when I do it, I either, I can do clicks in the ears or just tapping, like tapping yourself side to side, um, cause I’m doing all virtual, uh, so, uh, the eye movements can be a little weird on a computer, but, um, but anyway, uh, it, it looks and sounds totally insane, but, um, but it does, I, every time I’m like, well, I don’t know, we’ll try this and then it works.

And I’m like, yep, it, it works. It worked again, this crazy thing. Um, and you know, I’ve been doing it for six plus years, you know, with half my clients and it still works. Um, anyway, but, uh, I always joke that EMDR seems so simple because it’s the bilateral while you’re like kind of going through reminders of the trauma.

And people, you know, say like, Oh, I’m just going to do EMDR on myself. And I’m like, no, like it seems simple, but it is so personalized and so complex on the inside. I mean, you’re, you’re rewiring your brain. So please don’t do that with an app. Like, please do that with a trained licensed professional.

Right, as much as we all love to diagnose ourselves on TikTok these days.

Yeah.

Like, please get a trained therapist.

Yes. Yeah. And, um, well, if you’re using those apps that, like, the, the binaural beats, like, go ahead, but only think about positive and relaxing things. Right? Like, don’t go into anything upsetting. Only, like, think about being on a sunny beach, thinking of, think about, like, your, your favorite childhood memory of being, like, in your grandma’s kitchen and cooking.

Like, you know, like, think about really positive things. Go ahead and use the apps for that. That’s fine. But anything remotely upsetting or tied to something upsetting, please do it with a professional. Yeah.

sense. Good advice, just generally speaking. Um, that makes sense. I mean, what do you find to be most helpful for the average person who’s doing the healing work with sexual trauma?

Radical self compassion. Yeah, and um, learning how to set and reinforce boundaries with anyone in their life, right? Which is part of radical self compassion, because if you’re saying yes to everyone in your life, um, You’re not saying yes to yourself. If you’re saying yes to everyone else, you’re saying no to yourself.

So radical self compassion. Um, now you do still have to show up at work and like for your kids, like you, you need to like fulfill your responsibilities.

important things. Yeah.

I see some people. Particularly younger people confusing radical self compassion with, like, not having to be accountable. They’re not the same thing.

right.

Um, but, you know, you come home from work, and if you don’t have other responsibilities, like, just do things that bring you joy.

Like, um,

and so nice.

is. And, and also, like, take care of your basic needs, like sleep, food, hygiene. Yeah.

It’s, and it’s a lot, we all have so much on our plates. I think that even though it does sound so simple, I mean, like a lot of the people I work with, um, especially on the peanut app, which is a lot of new moms, um, they are, you know. Yeah, like working or like with kids all day and then like have chores and their partner gets home and they want to do more family time and then like someone wants to have sex with them and they’re just like, I can’t even with you.

And they’re just like, where, where was that time for myself? But, but I do think that’s where, you know, boundaries and, um,

hmm. Yeah. So I have two book recommendations on that topic that you just brought up, you know, second shift and like the resentment that builds with, particularly with, uh, straight couples that have kids that are kind of, there’s kind of some defaulting of domestic labor. Um, A really great book, Fair Play by Eve Rodsky, talks about this issue and actually has like a system for dealing with it.

And then in terms of setting and reinforcing boundaries, which my little spiel is like anyone can set boundaries, the magic happens in reinforcing them because if you set them and don’t reinforce them,

I said the same thing to my

Yeah. Yeah.

And like most people are so good at setting them, but then someone will challenge your boundaries. I promise you. And then you’re going to have to actually enforce them.

Yeah. Um, so my favorite book for that is Set Boundaries, Find, Find Peace by Nedra Glover Tawwab.

Love it. Um, yes, that one I have not read yet, but I’m going to put that on my list. And then we also have an episode with, um, Heather Klaus who wrote Take No Shit. Laughter.

Okay.

Um, and that one, that one’s kind of a fun take on boundaries, too. Um, so you’re right. I mean, like, when we’re laying out, like, what this process looks like, the stuff that’s gonna help you heal from sexual trauma,

It’s so personal. Mm hmm.

kind of make you a fabulous human.

Yeah. It’s whole person work.

Yeah, it, yeah, it really is. It’s not just like you sit and talk about sexual trauma all the time. It’s like, oh, boundaries. Oh, communication. Oh, tuning into what I really need and desire. Okay. Self care. Awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. It’s very inclusive and I think it can help people realize like maybe there’s not like a wrong way to approach this.

I mean, like you said with the self compassion, maybe it’s good enough what you’re doing now, you know?

totally.

Yeah, I love that. Um, Okay. Well, I mean,

to quickly circle back to sensate focus

Oh,

I mentioned it, but then didn’t talk about it Sensate focus is kind of a tiered approach to Dealing with a number of issues around sex, so But it certainly can be a great way to ease back into physical intimacy after an assault. And so there’s four phases.

The first one is non sexual, non genital touching. And this is basically like back rubs, like stroking someone’s arm, like being physically, physically intimate with no sexual intention. And both, you take turns, and both people just. Really, really trying to stay very much in the present moment. Like, what does it actually feel like when my partner touches my face like this?

Right? What does it feel like when they play with my hair? And just, can I just be present with that physical sensation? And then, um, the, the phases kind of get, um, more intimate and more sexual in nature. There’s also a lot of, you know, talking about like not emphasizing orgasm as like the, the goal, um, with physical intimacy, because that can put a lot of pressure on people that just kind of kills the vibe.

I’m sure you talk about that all the time. Um, but the, it being a very intentional approach where like when you’re in the first two phases, like the, um. The goal is just to physically, emotionally connect and to be, and even just to your own body. You can do sexual, you can do sensate focus with yourself.

What does it feel? Yes.

hand and notice, put yourself in like the receiving hand and then put yourself in like the touching hand, you know, and like notice that. Yeah.

What do you like? Different textures, different lotions, like being, being in dialogue with your own body. And then when you feel comfortable bringing a partner into that. Yeah,

and often if there’s like been some built up resentment or betrayal, I will start with like someone just experimenting with self touch. Yeah.

absolutely. Um, so that’s, you can Google Sense8 Focus and it’ll give you all the details. Um, but, but that’s a good tool to have.

It is. Well, thank you for all of this, like, value, uh, you’ve been sharing today. If people are curious to find out more about you, or follow you on social, or work with you, like, what’s the best way for them to get in touch?

Yeah, it’s pretty easy to find me. Laurel therapy. net is our website. Um, we, so I, I have a couple of, uh, other therapists in my practice and actually one that does have a certificate in sex therapy. Um, so if someone’s in California, um, you can reach out to us. , we have clinicians that can serve California, Florida, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Washington, Yeah, we, we love working with high achievers and we do a lot of trauma work.

Um, we also have an Instagram, Laurel Therapy Collective, we’re on LinkedIn, we’re on Facebook. It’s easy to find

Cool. Yeah, we’ll link to you, we’ll link to your website, and I’m assuming all your socials are also on the website, so we’ll, yeah, we’ll link there, and then if people, your website’s lovely, by the way, I took a

Thank you. Oh, you know what? I do have a free offer that, um, we have a trauma informed yoga class that is just on demand and so you can find it, um, on our YouTube channel or. I think it might be linked through the website. You might have to give us your email address, but it’s just an hour long. Um, there’s a little mindfulness exercise at the beginning and the end.

And then we have this fabulous yoga teacher that you can do it on your own, but you know, that’s a great way to get in touch with your body after a trauma. So, um, so yeah, that, that trauma informed yoga

Yeah, well, yeah, we’ll get that specific link for you, and we’ll put it in the, uh, show notes. Um. So yeah, thank you so much for being here. This has been a really awesome discussion. Thank you everybody for listening and, you know, just remember if you’re on this trauma healing journey for yourself or with a friend or partner, um, you know, that, uh, it’s, it’s a step by step thing and you’re moving in the right direction.

So good

absolutely. Radical self compassion.

right.   📍 📍 That’s right. All right. Thanks, Laurel. Thanks everybody. We’ll catch you next week.