As humans? We tend to heal within the context of. Relationships, not just romantic relationships, but in the context of the relationships that we have with our colleagues, like these types of conversations and our friends and our family.
This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to Ask a Sex Therapist.
📍 📍 📍 📍 Hello, everybody. Welcome to this week’s episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. 📍 We do have a special guest this week, and we’re going to be talking about sex and attachment styles, which is not something we’ve really ever talked about in combination before, and I think it’s going to be really interesting for everybody.
Um, so welcome to our guest, Bev. Uh, Bev. Mitelman uh, as a child lived in a very unpredictable and chaotic environment where she never knew if she could rely on her parents to meet her emotional needs. This led to her absorbing unhealthy relationship ideas based on what she was witnessing. She believed relationships were supposed to be unbalanced, uncertain, and overall chaotic.
If you have an insecure attachment style, which we’ll talk more about, you probably relate to her experience, and navigating relationships can be particularly difficult for you. Prior to becoming a certified attachment practitioner and founding Securely Loved, Bev was an executive leader, university lecturer, and published author, having obtained her master’s degree in 2006.
She has dedicated her entire career, 25 plus years, working with adults in the realm of personal growth and professional development. So welcome, Bev. Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here with you and your audience.
you. And I actually got my master’s degree the same year you got yours. So that’s
Really? You know, I kind of shuddered when you read that and I was like 2006. That was a lifetime ago.
Well, I don’t, I don’t feel like I’m old, so I don’t think it matters.
There are days I feel still like I’m 22, but I’m not,
right. But it’s nice to feel that way, I think. That’s like the ideal. If you can have like the wisdom from getting older but still feel great, that’s what everyone’s aiming for.
you kind of wish that you could go back for a day knowing what you know now.
Oh yeah. Like, yes. I think that’s why everyone’s searching for the Fountain of Youth, basically. But, um, but anyways, I am excited to hear about this. Obviously, you shared in your bio a little bit more about, like, it sounds like you’ve found this work pretty honestly, like from your own kind of upbringing and experience, but how did you even hear about attachment styles, let alone kind of make it your specialty?
Yeah, it’s a great question. So you’re absolutely right. Um, I tripped on this work many years ago when I was on my own healing journey. So, um, I just, you know, the one thing I knew is that I didn’t feel good in my skin. I knew that my anxiety was high, that I was jumpy, that something felt off balance. Uh, and, and for years I really tried to figure out why did I feel this way?
How can I feel better? I’d been to a number of Doctors, practitioners, therapists, um, and, and they, you know, they all helped a little bit. And then I found the work, the body of work on attachment styles, attachment theory, and it just clicked. And it just, it opened up a whole other lane for me to explore.
And this body of work had the largest impact on me in terms of my own healing. So, you know, I was like, other people need to know about this. Is that effective?
yeah. And I mean, I feel similarly, I think from like all my years being a therapist, I did get to a point where I’m like, I think all of this boils down to like how secure do we feel in ourselves? Um, and part of my background is that, you know, I was practicing Buddhist for 13 years and, um, you know, there’s, there’s some discussion there of like, the world’s problems could be solved if everyone could sit alone in a room by themselves comfortably.
And I’m like, I think, I think there’s a lot of overlap there. So, so what, can you share a little bit more about like your personal attachment journey and like how you found some healing for yourself?
Yeah. I absolutely can. So, um, I know we’re going to get into the, the different styles
Yep.
I’ll keep this brief. But, I, uh, realized at some point in time, once I was learning about attachment styles, that I actually had, uh, the rarest attachment style, um, which is called the fearful avoidance. And the fearful avoidance, it has some traits of the anxious attacher and some traits of the avoidant attacher.
It’s also called the disorganized. Disorganized attacher or disorganized attachment, and that’s a good term, uh, disorganized in the sense of my psyche was confused in terms of how to view love, um, and because of what I experienced in childhood, um, I really, really wanted closeness, but I feared intimacy.
And so when someone would come close to me, it would feel good and then it would scare me and I would pull away or push back. And so it was sort of this roller coaster internally going inside, you know, on my mind. And, um, you know, it brought me great stress. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t just end, you know, with the patterns in your behaviors with your romantic partner.
Your attachment style impacts. Your, you know, your emotional patterns, your communication patterns, your relationship to boundaries. And so it was so pervasive for me. Um, and when I started to do some work and dive into what my core wounds were, that’s when I was able to heal my thought patterns. Right? So once we can Nail down those core wounds, we can say, okay, now I can consciously be aware of the fact that these thought patterns are surfacing and I can actually, you know, refute them and go, wait a minute, this is not true.
My mind believes that it’s true, but it’s not. And so it’s like an awakening in awareness. Um, because all of this stuff lives at the subconscious level and we’re not aware of it. And so part of the work is to bring it up to our conscious level and just to deal with it. Right. And try to rationalize it.
And so, you know, I want people to know you can. Move towards a secure attachment. You can heal from this. I did. Uh, and, uh, you know, I, I consider it like a work in progress always, right? Because we’re always learning. Uh, but at the end of the day, I just feel so much more comfortable and calmer and clearer on what it is that I actually want, what it is I actually need.
And so my anxiety, for example, has been hugely, um, decreased as a result. Um, yeah, it’s very nice. So the work is. You know, if you ask me, this is important work.
Yeah, absolutely, and I appreciate that you mentioned the anxiety just kind of overall because sometimes we might just think of, you know, generalized anxiety and might not make that connection. Like, this is actually an attachment wound and that might be where you need to focus your attention rather than
Yeah, so we know that anxiety comes up, you know, there’s different reasons, right? Like biologically, you could be a little more predispositioned to be anxious. That could be one thing. Situationally, you can be in a very, very stressful moment or series of circumstances. But also, you could also have patterns from your childhood that you have absorbed that have led you, you know, down a very anxious path.
path. So I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety. Um, but, but the key for me and healing was understanding the patterns that I had absorbed in childhood and asking myself, is it still true? And when I realized, oh my God, my mind is worrying about something that isn’t even true. I wasn’t, I wasn’t aware of it.
Yeah, it’s wild. I mean, and I’m also wondering if you could tell us a little bit about like, what did it used to be like being in relationships, you know, for you? Like, what was your experience being in relationships? And like, what is it like now? So like, what is sort of that, you know, point A to point B journey?
Yeah.
I again was fearful avoidance, but leaning heavily avoidance, and I know we’re gonna talk about this. Um, and so, you know, I, I need a lot of personal space, um, you know, uh, my particular attachment style, um, especially if you’re leaning, avoidant, um. You know, it is very afraid of losing their freedom, their independence.
They’re highly sensitive to criticism. And so when someone would come at me, it would feel like a personal attack. Uh, and I know now that I wasn’t interpreting those situations properly. You know, usually when someone’s trying to talk to you, it’s because they’re trying to get closer. They’re trying to get an understanding.
Um, but it, it felt affronting. And so I would take space.
Yeah.
Um, so that was my go to, uh, and yeah, and, and I did it, but I didn’t know why I was doing it. I just know, I just knew that I felt overwhelmed. And, and I couldn’t, like, the emotions would almost overwhelm me, and I couldn’t find my words, uh, and I couldn’t express what I was feeling, because my mind was confused, because I hadn’t quite figured it out.
That all of these old patterns were surfacing in these moments of time where they no longer hold true. So like the things that I learned to do to survive when I was five years old were no longer relevant to me when I was a married woman.
Yeah.
Except I was still employing the same tactics and everyone does this.
Right, absolutely. And I’m sure so many people are relating as you’re, you know, saying what you’re saying now, because it’s something I see in a lot of my clients. And I think that’s something we’ve all experienced to some degree of like, whoa, emotional overwhelm, shutting down, you know, like cannot compute.
Um,
I’ll use a very specific example. So I did grow up in a home. You know, I had a, um, challenging, uh, childhood. There was no stable frame to our home, right? It was sort of like moment to moment. We couldn’t really know what to expect. Um, and as a result of this unpredictability in this chaos, um, I had a lot of fear That just lived inside of me, of my parents, because I kind of never knew what was going to come my way.
And so as a teenager, I actually developed this pattern of, um, whenever I would hear my father come home from work, I would sort of like listen for his footsteps and like I could discern. Are those angry footsteps? Are they pleasant footsteps? Like I could, right, so hyper vigilance is part of this. You learn to survive, right?
And if I felt like there was a threat, I would immediately bolt into the washroom. And the washroom was the only room in our house that had a lock. And I would spend hours In the washroom
Okay.
because that’s where I found safety. He couldn’t get to me
Okay.
and when I thought he was asleep hours later, I would sneak out and go to my bedroom right now.
Fast forward 30 years later and I’m now, I’m no longer living in my family of
Right. Right.
I’m married. Uh, I’m with, uh, a beautiful husband who has never been anything but kind to me is our entire time. And anytime I feel overwhelmed, I bolt to the bathroom and lock the door. And one day, he said to me, Uh, like he knocked on the door.
I had been in there for hours. He knocked on the door and he said, do you have a stomach ache? No, I’m fine. And he’s like, really? Because because you’ve been in there for hours and I didn’t even realize. And I was like, has it been that long? He’s like, Yeah, it’s it’s been a while. Like, why are you hiding? And I was like, I don’t know. I guess I just do this because it makes me feel safe. Because it’s what I’ve always done, and I never even thought.
I’m just right. So these are the types of things that and I bet if people think about it, there are certain behaviors that they’re doing that are helping them survive. But in a situation that’s no longer a threat.
Yeah, I mean, I think we all do this. Like, I think this is, like, the definition of trauma. Uh, which, you know, there’s a whole spectrum of trauma, so if you’re listening, you’ve experienced some kind of trauma. Doesn’t always have to be life threatening. But, you know, we internalize that. So it’s like, there’s the instance of trauma, but then there’s like the story of trauma that lives on within us.
And so becoming aware of that is so huge. And it’s like, obviously just becoming aware doesn’t solve it by itself, but it’s really important
it’s a really big first step though, that awareness, right?
yeah. So, I mean, thank you for just like sharing about your journey. I think it’s really going to help people sort of identify themselves a little bit. Um, and, and to kind of understand like how this impacts.
But let’s, let’s go ahead and like define the attachment styles for people
Yeah, I’d love to. So I, you know, to sort of finish off the thread there, I want people to realize that all of your behaviors, the things that you do and the things that you don’t do, they’re not random. So we are all They’re not random. You know, people think that they have full free agency over their mind.
The truth of the matter is, is that you’re running on autopilot these patterns. 📍 It’s like this old software in your mind. And unless you actually upgrade it, it’s going to continue to run the software from 30 years ago.
100%. And I mean, this is the work I do. This is the work you do. You know, it’s like we’re helping people to see the patterns and get a little space from them so they can heal them.
yeah, exactly. Exactly. So attachment styles. Um, I’ll try to give a one on one because I know we’re going to go into the topic of sex a little bit, but there’s such a huge overlap here. So, um, we have two broad categories of attachment styles. 📍 We have secure attachments and 📍 then we have insecure attachments.
Okay, so we’ll start with secure attachment. That’s sort of the goal, the aim. Uh, we say in North America, yeah. That 40 to 60 percent of the population has a secure attachment. So I usually just. For, for, you know, easy chatting, I say half
Yeah.
it’s around there. So what is secure attachment actually means? Well, this is, um, a style that is developed in a child who grew up in a home where their caregiver had a, uh, a very good sense of emotional attunement towards their child.
right? So the child learned about feelings. The child was given space to express. The caregiver was, um, attuned to their needs. Um, the child learns emotional regulation and all of these beautiful things led up to a child who then grows up. As an adult who feels very comfortable in relationships, they would, they’re good with boundaries.
They’re generally good communicators. They are not emotionally volatile. They’re usually the people that are like really steady, you know? Um, and they can speak up for their own needs, but they’re also very thoughtful of others. Um, and they see the world through a lens of. 📍 It’s all about connection.
mm hmm,
That’s what they learned.
The connection was safe. So they had safety, security and predictability in their childhood. So that’s one set of patterns. Right. Now we can talk about, uh, what that, what sex looks like for these individuals in, in a little bit, but we’ll, we’ll skip to the insecure.
Yeah, let’s hear about that.
insecure is what often gets much more attention.
Right, because that’s those of us who need some help in this area. So the secure people aren’t listening to this episode.
We’re like, you’re fine.
they’re fine.
turn it off. Right.
100%.
Fair point. So, um, under, under the umbrella of insecure attachment, we actually have three subcategories.
Mm hmm.
So, and it’s like a continuum. 📍 So on one end, we have those who are 📍 called the anxious attachers or in the literature, it’s called anxious preoccupied.
Mm hmm. Mm
of the scale, 📍 we have the avoidant attachers. Also called dismissive avoidance. 📍 And then in the middle, we spoke about this already. We have the fearful avoidance, also called disorganized attachment.
Mm hmm.
Okay. So let’s, what does this actually mean? So the, the folks who grew up. In a home, we’re going to talk about the anxious attachers, the anxious preoccupies here.
Generally, they grew up in a home where they were dealing with a caregiver who was not emotionally attuned to them. Uh, largely emotionally unavailable. Uh, and this could be for a number of reasons, right? Maybe there was, uh, maybe the caregiver had a mental illness. Maybe the caregiver was an alcoholic.
Maybe the caregiver had to leave the home often for work. Maybe there were too many Children in the home and that, you know, one child couldn’t get the attention they needed. There is. A plethora of scenarios whereby the child will feel like they’re not getting the love, validation and attention that they need to form that healthy bonds.
Right. I want to, I want to jump in here just real quickly too and say, and in my practice I’ve seen like a lot of people who come from like families where they’re close to their family and like they always knew their parents loved them and there was some form of validation here and there and all of that can still be anxiously attached because I’ve, I’ve had clients almost like defend their parents.
Where I’m like, this is not an attack on your family, this is not an attack on your parents, it doesn’t mean you weren’t loved. It just means that, like you’re saying, some of that emotional attunement piece was maybe missing. Um, where your parent either wasn’t physically as available to give it to you, or they were maybe just more of a reserved person.
So there’s, like you said, there’s a lot of different scenarios here, but it doesn’t mean like, oh, your family sucked. So I just wanted
And I’m so glad you brought that up. It’s such a fair point because I hear this often too, right? Like, tell me about your family. Oh, my parents were wonderful. We had three meals a day. I had a warm bed to sleep in. Okay. Did you ever get a hug? Oh, we didn’t hug.
Right, right.
did you ever get an I love you? No, but I knew it.
Okay, uh, you know, if you got upset How did they handle this situation? So, the thing here is, is that it’s really important to teach children, especially from the youngest age, from zero to five, about their emotions. That they can have emotions, and they can express their emotions, and most importantly, that someone will respond to their emotions in a healthy way.
That helps the child develop emotional regulation,
Hmm.
right? And emotional regulation is absolutely a life skill that you need in adulthood. So for every child that was told, uh, stop crying, or I’ll give you something to cry about.
Yeah.
You’re laughing, but how prevalent was that sentence, right? We used to hear it all the time.
What you’re teaching the child in that situation is. Don’t express yourself. Even if you’re upset, I don’t want to hear it. Put a smile on your face. So you’re learning how to be disingenuine. You’re learning how to hide.
People
how to replace your feelings and you and you’re learning how to show up as the person that your caregiver wants you to be.
So you’re, you’re, you’re sort of abandoning yourself to please this other person.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I’m just going to also add as someone with a highly sensitive nervous system and empath, I think those of us who are very sensitive, uh, maybe also need more attunement, you know, so I think that’s a factor as well. It could be like, okay, your parents weren’t like, you know, terribly aligned with you, but you also might have needed more than like one of your siblings who turned out to have secure attachment.
Like, I think that’s also interesting
percent right? No, two Children are the same, right? Even twins. I have an identical
Oh, how interesting.
And so people will be like, it’s so interesting because you, you know, you had the same childhood and I always go, there’s no two children who had the same childhood because you had a different relationship because you had different challenges, strengths, weaknesses.
So, so yeah. But I would say that, um, most of the time when people in their adulthood feel like they need that level of like the word needy, It gets thrown around a lot. They need a lot of validation, reassurance. It’s typically because they were starved in childhood,
that makes sense.
right? Like, like we talked about, you know, a person who’s like, you know, wandering the desert for three days and they finally see water and they’re just, of course they’re needy and they just, they take everything they can because they’re parched.
They’ve been starved of it.
Right. Right.
So that’s normal. It’s human, right? Um, so, and, and, and we see this again with anxious attaches, right? So, um, so that’s, that’s the group of anxious attaches. Um, they’re very, they’re very kind, they’re very generous. They’re, they’re very
Loving. Yeah, I think they have like a lot to give. Yeah. Um, and that’s what percentage of the population is that one?
So about 20%. So we’re now like 50% are secure and now we’re divvying up the other 50%. So, it’s about 20%, give or take, right?
Yep.
Give or take. But, um, these individuals do, when they’re in romantic relationships, they do require more Validation, reassurance, um, attention, um, and part of the things that they didn’t learn in childhood is how to self soothe.
And so their focus is always on the other person. Their third, their focus is how can I get the other person to like me? You know, what do I need to do to please them? That’s the pattern they learn.
right, right.
there are issues with codependency there, there’s issues with self worth, um, you know, so these individuals, um, will have a harder time in relationships.
yeah, that, and that makes sense. And that’s, you know, mostly my style. I think there’s a little bit of avoidant lurking in me as well. But yeah, the anxious one is something I worked on a lot as well with a hypnotherapist actually, which was
Really?
Yeah, so, so helpful. I think it really like created this sense of like internal trust that was just wonderful for me.
And it’s also a lot of who I work with, you know, I mean, for sure, there’s some avoidance in there. They often get dragged in by their partner.
Right. They’re usually paired up together.
They’re usually in a couple that I’m seeing, but a lot of who I work with is, you know, people, yeah, dealing with dating anxiety or like looking to get more of their needs met in a relationship. And, um, yeah, so it’s an interesting journey, but important. It’s important work
Yeah. So, so really they’re, um, they have a strong need for approval, right? And if they’re in a romantic relationship, that becomes the center of their world. It’s the most important thing. Um, they generally do like to be around a lot of people. Like, it’s interesting. These patterns are so predictive that we find, like, for example, that anxious, preoccupied people will seek out job opportunities where they’re around a lot of people.
So teachers,
Yeah.
teachers, right? So they walk into, like, in elementary schools, right? They walk into a classroom and they get 30 hugs from, you know, little, little munchkins, and it just feeds their soul.
That’s really cute.
Yeah. And so we see this, right? Um, whereas I can tell you categorically someone who’s avoidant would never be a teacher at an elementary school. They just never,
Yeah.
they’re a different ball of wax, right? In terms of their emotional pattern and so forth. So should we jump
Yeah, let’s get into the avoidance. Yeah.
So the avoidance, um, they’re a little different in terms of their emotional patterns and, and, and their behavior. These folks tend to come out of a home where, um, they experienced emotional neglect.
And so very typically we see that this child has spent a lot of time alone. This is the child who cries and, and the mother or the father says, I don’t want to hear you cry and go to your room.
Okay.
So the child learns very early on that, you know, expressing your feelings really doesn’t get me anywhere. In fact, it often gets me punished.
Um, and so they just learned to repress that, and they have to, for survival, learn how to deal with things on their own,
Okay.
right? So, these are the families that sweep things under the rug, they don’t talk about things, um, it could be, I’ve seen, you know, avoidance come out of homes where, uh, one or both parents was very stoic, like, we didn’t talk about anything.
Right. Uh, or maybe they came out of a home where, you know, the family was part of a high demand religion, right? Where this is the way. So there’s so many scenarios here, but they were emotionally neglected.
Yeah, that makes sense. And I, I think like not to bash on the baby boomers because I love a lot of baby boomers and they’re not all avoidant of emotions, but I do think there was sort of like they grew up with like children are to be seen and not heard and like, you know, let’s not talk about negative or painful emotions and let’s just, you know, be, try to be happy all the time and ignore other stuff,
you’re, you’re right on the money, Heather. You’re right. So I’m Gen X. I’m almost 50. So I’m Gen X. But I was raised by the baby bloomers. And I have heard those words, especially when it comes to, you know, I guess There was a little bit, you know, um, patriarchy that kind of filtered into our family. But, you know, I heard things like, not just that children aren’t to be seen and heard, but little girls,
Oh, interesting.
girls, you know, are there to just be seen and not heard.
So just put a smile on your face and don’t talk and, and which is really, really dismissive. Right. It’s like. So even if you’re angry and steam is coming out of your ears, the expectation is you have to abandon all of that, be disingenuine and put a smile on your face.
Yes, and I love that you’re mentioning the word abandoned too, because I think there’s, what I discovered in my like hypnosis journey, I have this image that there was like this little Heather in the heart center, and it was almost like I was giving her away to these, you know, guys that I was dating. And then they weren’t doing what I thought they should do to take care of her. And then I was like, wait, she’s supposed to stay with me. I have to go retrieve her and like, put her back in my little heart center and make sure that I’m taking care of the mini Heather. So that was my imagery. But it’s, it’s really what you’re speaking to of this, like, self abandonment.
Um, that, you know, it takes a lot of intentionality and awareness to reverse that.
It does. It does. You know, and I generally start with people in the present moment. Like I don’t, you know, talk to me about when you were four. No, I start with. You know, tell me something that really upset you last week or like that really got your motor running because what I’m trying to look for is those triggers.
So the triggers that are still really strong and present in your body today, those are the ones that you’ve carried for the longest amount
Love that. Yeah. It’s like we, and this is like, we, we avoid the painful things, but those are like the keys that are telling us what it is. We need to change.
It’s exactly it. So, you know, if you can, if you can, and people tell me this, these things all the time, like, they tell me things that seem random, but they’re not. So an example will be, I was driving home from work and some guy cut me off. And so I flipped him the bird.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, uh, so you, you were calm and then you went from zero to 60 in no time because someone cut you off.
Well, it was, you know, I had the lights and it wasn’t his lane. And so right there I can go, okay. There’s a wound here around I feel disrespected.
Mm.
That’s the trigger. Did you feel disrespected in the moment? Damn, right I did and I was like got it because if I was driving and someone cut me off, I’d be like
Right.
that wound
Okay, that
I have other ones but that wouldn’t set me off
yeah, yeah, it is so interesting. And I think that’s, I appreciate you saying that too, because I think it’s so important for us to remember, like, do not beat yourself up if you have any of these wounds. Literally every human on the planet has some wounding, right? It doesn’t make you better or worse, but it does feel a lot better when you heal them.
I’ll say that.
Yeah, it does.
much better, yeah.
Yeah. And you can identify them. So just to be clear, I know we’re talking about the dismissive, but the anxious preoccupied their core wounds are, I will be abandoned.
Okay.
I am unlikable. I am unlovable. I will be excluded. I am not good enough. I am not worthy. So you can see the the sort of general theme of that.
It’s all that I’m not good enough.
Yes.
Right. Okay. The avoidant has a different set of core wounds. Their big core wound is, I am defective. It’s a shame wound. There’s something wrong with me. Now it’s subconscious, which means that if you ask an avoidant directly, Do you feel like something’s wrong with you?
The likely answer would be like, No, I’m fine.
Yeah. I’m great. Yeah.
Right. It’s subconscious, and it’s subconsciously guides their behavior. So avoidance are often, um, they’re, they’re often demonized. I don’t demonize avoidance. I think that it’s a, it’s a coping strategy. Uh, you know, they, they haven’t healed just yet, but it’s a coping strategy, um, based in trauma.
Um, but they’re often demonized, you know, as being secretive, um, you know, very secretive. Slow to commit in relationships. Yes, because they’re afraid of letting people close to them. That was never modeled for them in childhood. The idea of vulnerability just feels way too weak.
Yeah.
And the idea is if I let someone too close to me, they too will see that there’s something wrong with me.
Like my mother once did, and they won’t love me.
hmm.
That’s, that’s the pattern, right? It’s a shame wound,
Yeah, and I appreciate your perspective on that because I agree The Attached Book is so often referenced and I do refer people to that book But I I do feel like it’s it’s a book written for anxiously attached people That is kind of hard on avoidantly attached people and I it’s not really fair.
So I just want to say that
not my favorite book. It’s not my favorite book, but it’s also because it doesn’t talk about the fearful avoidance, which is the fourth category. I know. So it’s not my favorite book. Um, again, you know, if we take all of the all of the folks, so 50 percent of the population that falls insecure, whether they be anxiously attached, avoidantly attached or fearful avoidance, they have one core wounds that they all share just one.
And that core wound is I am unsafe,
Ooh,
they always feel unsafe in the world. And so their emotional patterns, their thought patterns, their behavior is a projection of them feeling unsafe. And so, you know, when an avoidant is very secretive, it’s because they don’t feel safe to share, right? They’re very afraid of losing their independence.
Well, because they can never depend on anyone else other than themselves.
Mm hmm.
And so this is where it comes from. It’s not that they’re bad people, right? But they’re also emotionally dysregulated. They never learned emotional regulation. And so as you brought up earlier in the conversation, as luck would have it, the anxious attacher and the avoidant attacher tend to always find each
They really do. Right.
generally will gravitate towards someone who’s also securely attached. Right. Which leaves those that are insecurely attached, often swimming in the same dating pool,
Mm hmm.
right? There are some characteristics and traits that are so wonderful.
with each of these groups
Oh, yeah.
that are so attractive to each other. So the anxious preoccupied, um, what they love about the avoidance is the avoidance sense of self, you know, sense of self reliance. I can do it all on my own. Um, the opposite, right. Of, of the anxious preoccupied, um, their sense of. Really good set of boundaries, which the anxious preoccupied doesn’t understand boundaries at all.
They don’t understand. It was never modeled. Um, they they struggle to to actually define boundaries, and they they really very often will overstep other people’s boundaries to
Yep.
Right. Because they don’t understand it in the same way. So there’s all these things that the anxious preoccupied likes about the, the avoidant person.
And the avoidant person, when in the presence of the anxious person, they feel, um, you know, like, They feel a sense of love that they’re not used to. They feel a sense of attention and tell me about your day. Tell me everything about you. I’m so interested. And they’re used to living a pretty isolated life.
And so that’s, that’s really engaging too. So what we know why they come together in the beginning, it’s usually quite electric,
Yes.
but, but it’s like, yes.
unfortunately, tend to reinforce each other, you know, where it’s like the anxious person is kind of like, I’m not being validated or getting the reassurance and the avoidance a little bit more reserved maybe in their expressions and the avoidant is like, I don’t want to be smothered.
The anxious is like, give me more, you know, so that’s, yeah, it can be challenging as well.
that’s exactly, that’s exactly it. Um, and of course they, you know, if they’re both aware of their patterns, they can work through that. But many couples aren’t.
Right. Exactly.
So we do see, we do see problems there. Um, it’s a, it’s a common pairing, right? What was once so attractive in the beginning is ultimately what tears them apart.
Right, right. If you don’t do the work, but it’s, it’s not, it’s not easy.
no,
But what I,
it’s doable.
doable. When I tell people, um, and that’s another thing I don’t like about the attached book is like, they just like basically are doom and gloom for like any pairing that’s anxious avoid it. But, um, they, uh, I, when I tell people that each as you come to center, which is like secure as you move towards that center of the spectrum.
Your partner will naturally also move towards that, right, because you’re not like living in and acting out your core wound as much. And so that, I think, can be really encouraging.
Very encouraging. We know that people can very much like, I get this question all the time. Like, do you have to be perfectly healed to get into a relationship as humans? We tend to heal within the context of. Relationships, not just romantic relationships, but in the context of the relationships that we have with our colleagues, like these types of conversations and our friends and our family.
So So yeah, that’s a very
awesome. Okay, do we need, do we need to hear more about the fearful
we do.
and their core wound? Okay.
We’ll talk. We’ll talk just briefly about it. So the child who grows up in a home where there’s intense chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, So, uh, a high degree of unpredictability, um, oftentimes there’s abuse in the home. So it could be, for example, abuse, any kind of abuse.
Mm hmm.
Um, it could be a child, for example, that was dragged through a high conflict divorce. A
That makes sense.
lot of chaos. One night I’m here, one night I’m there. Someone’s crying. It’s just a lot of emotional instability, right? Um, and so these individuals grow up with a disorganized attachment, which means they have a human need for love and connection, as all humans do, but they greatly fear intimacy.
So they have, they have traits of both the anxious attacher and the avoidant attacher, which if you could only imagine is really, really hard to live with because they, they oscillate between these two extremes.
Right.
Um, and so it’s challenging. It’s challenging for the individual because they’re aware of the fact that one minute they feel this way in the one minute they feel another.
It’s challenging for their partner. Um, you know, the core wound for the fearful avoidance, this is not going to surprise you. The core wound is I will be betrayed.
Mmm!
So they have a really, really difficult time with trust and establishing trust because there was no security and trust within the environment they grew up in.
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s almost hard to imagine. I, you know, I think when we grow up in a, in a dynamic, that’s not secure. And it’s also fascinating for me when I meet people who are like secure and grew up secure and I’m secure with, I’m like, Oh my God, they’re so chill about their relationship and they just trust that it’s going to keep going well.
I’m like, Oh, that seems so delightful.
it seems like, you know, it always makes me like, like shed a little tear. Like, yeah, often when I travel, I’ll bump into like. a grown woman, like, like a mother daughter combo, but like the daughter is 25 and, and, and they just look so cute together. And I’m like, are your mother, daughter? Oh yeah. We’re spending a weekend away.
And I’m like that to have that stable relationship, uh, to me, it gets me every time. Cause I always look at these two and I go, you’re so lucky
Yeah, yeah, and people, and I think people don’t realize that sometimes. So that’s a good reminder.
Yeah. And so if you have that stable frame, right, you had one or two caregivers that were that source of stability, comfort, support, emotional attunement. You’ve learned that that’s what you could expect from others. And that’s where your standard is.
Right.
And so, you know, you date others. And if that person is not treating you at that level, uh, it’s a no.
Yeah. Yes.
it’s a no,
Yeah.
they don’t allow bullshit into their world because that’s what causes them stress, right? Because it’s like, no, no, my standard is here, right? They know they deserve better.
That makes sense. Um, so let’s talk about how all this pertains to sex. Um, you know, like I’m, I’m very curious what, what you’ve seen with your clients or just what you’ve learned along the way about, um, yeah. How does it impact people’s approaches when it
It’s super interesting. And I think you can help me fill in some of the, some of the narrative here. So we’ll talk first about the anxious preoccupied person. And so. We talked about how this person is, needs a lot of, uh, validation, reassurance, attention because they don’t know how to self suit, right? So their focus is always external.
So when they’re in a romantic partnership, um, their partner is like number one.
Yes.
This person might not even be able to identify their own needs, but they, they, they do know what their partner wants. So when it comes to, um, sex, they often use sex as a means for emotional bonding. They yearn for that closeness, right?
So, um, the problem is, is that because they are people pleasers, they often get stuck in their own head, right? Am I doing this right? Does he, does he enjoying it? What does he need? Or what does she need? Or what? They’re, they’re thinking about the experience of the other person. They’re almost detached from themselves.
Yeah.
They tend to also be highly permissible, the most permissible out of all of the attachment styles. Now, why is this? Because they’re trying to please their partner.
When you say permissible with sex, what do you mean by that?
Uh, it can mean a number of things. So for example, uh, you know, you’re with a new partner and you said, I’d like to use a condom. And he says, Uh, you know, I don’t have any condoms and, and, you know, a woman who wants to have sex in that moment because she wants to please the man, she’s far more likely to go, Oh, it’s okay.
Don’t worry about it.
that makes sense.
you know, permissible and risky behavior.
kind of going along with things, yeah.
If the man wants to do X, Y, Z, she’s much more likely to go, okay, if that’s what you even if it does not align to the things that she enjoys.
Okay. That makes
She’s not likely to speak her mind or he, you know what? I want to be clear on the pronouns I’m using here because attachment styles are not gendered.
Which means, you know, there’s plenty of men who are anxiously attached and there’s plenty of women that are avoided and so forth. So, we’re sort of using it interchangeably. Um, but the focus is really external. Um, and, and there is a, uh, a really big risk there. A lot of people who are anxiously preoccupied will, uh, confuse sex and love.
Hmm.
There’s no separation for them,
Yeah. That, yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, I know we’re going to talk about the other styles too, but yeah, it’s not an easy journey, you know, um, I’m also wondering what I’m hearing and what I see with clients too is like, When someone’s a people pleaser in sex, um, they’re usually not getting their needs met.
They might feel sort of like some pressure, unspoken maybe, or obligation to like perform or, you know, just kind of, like you said, kind of abandon their own needs for their partner’s needs. Because I think sex is a big form of validation. Cause it’s like, Oh, because I I’m wanted and somebody’s into me and somebody finds me sexually attractive.
And so then it’s like, well, I absolutely need that validation. So I will just sacrifice whatever else I need to, to make sure I get
and you know Heather like if we extend that out a little bit you could kind of see where you know It’s like if you’re having sex a lot you could see how that would fall into the realm of Well, they must really love me. They want to be with me all the time. You can see how they’re, it can fuse together.
But for many people, sex and love are distinctly two different things.
yeah, and I would say factually they are. They might go together, you know, and it’s nice when they do, but yeah, I think that is a good distinction. So, yeah,
Yeah.
Um,
so we talked about poor boundaries, poor boundaries again in sex. Right. This is, this is thematically, uh, if they have poor boundaries in life in general in the bedroom, it shows up along the same way. So, you know, whether they want to do something or not, they’re likely going to comply because they don’t want to say no to their partner.
Why? Because they’re afraid their partner will leave them.
Right! Right! Because abandonment is the core wound here. Yeah! Exactly! Yeah! So I think, if this is you and you’re listening, you know, just saying no once in a while could be like a really good practice for you or just kind of saying like, Hey, we tend to do, you know, XYZ sexual activities that you’re into.
But, you know, I would really love, you know, getting more oral sex, or I would really love, um, having more foreplay or flirting ahead of time or whatever it is that will like genuinely help you get in the mood. And I’m going to take it back a step further. Ask yourself, what do I want? I think just asking yourself that can start to like flip the script on this a little bit.
Yeah. What do I enjoy? And if you don’t know what you enjoy, explore a little. Find out what you enjoy because your partner is not just going to figure it out, right? Like, you have to first know what you enjoy.
right. And yeah, sometimes I think we’re almost like, um. abdicating that responsibility, you know, it’s like, no, we’re responsible for our own pleasure and for the communication that goes with that, which I think is a really secure behavior, right?
It’s like, if the goal is moving towards secure, like knowing yourself, taking the time to figure yourself out is all secure behavior, communicating that in a nice way. It’s like, yeah.
So that’s a really good, like, flip side if we’re talking about secure. You’re absolutely right. When two people who are mostly secure, because people fall in, you know, mostly secure, but then they generally have like a secondary style that might come up once in a while, but mostly secure, um, they’re comfortable talking about things, they know what they like, they’re comfortable giving and receiving, um, they understand that the experience can sometimes be just physical and sometimes it’s emotionally bonding, like there’s variance,
Yeah, yeah,
but it’s a shared experience.
right,
Right. Um, the one thing anxious preoccupied will sometimes weaponize sex. This is, we’ve seen this before. Yeah. Um, so if they’re, if they’re stressed or having, you know, there’s relational issues, they’ll use sex as a form of repair,
could
right? Like, so these people, depending on how far they are on the scale, they’re often emotionally volatile.
hmm. Mm hmm.
preoccupied people feel their feelings in a really big way. Opposite to the avoidants who tend to not feel their feelings at all.
Yeah, yeah.
The anxious preoccupieds, when they get triggered, it’s really big, it’s overwhelming.
Yeah.
Right. Uh, and so if, if they’ve said or done something in one of those moments and then they feel bad about it, you know, they might weaponize sex.
Okay, let’s just forget about it. Let’s have sex. Or if they feel like they’re not getting that level of closeness from their partner, they’ll use sex. It’s because they haven’t figured out intimacy in other ways. You can ask for a hug. You can hold hands. You could cuddle on the couch. They’ll go right to sex.
They want the focus on them. And they want to, in the moment, feel like, you know, their partner is the only thing they’re thinking about. So, yeah, this, we do see this,
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, all right. Yeah, it really does.
So, we do find that the group that has the best, you know, I would say, overall orgasms are the folks that are securely attached.
And this makes sense.
Yep
Not surprising. So anxiously preoccupied people, they’re often so caught up in their head and worried about the relational issues and whatnot that, that it becomes so difficult for them to just be in the moment, relax, think about themselves, all the things they struggle with, and just have an orgasm because you can be in bed with the best lover ever.
But if your mindset isn’t in the right place, It’s not going to happen.
Yeah, that’s, it’s true. And I mean, that’s something I think as I’ve gotten older and done probably healing work, you know, Um, my incidents of orgasming with another person has also gone up, right? Like not an accident. And also when I look and reflect on relationships I’ve had that felt the most secure, Also highest proportion of orgasm.
So, you know, it’s just, there’s definitely a correlation there. Um, I’m pretty sure Emily Nagoski talks about this in her book, 📍 Come As You Are. So if people are curious, they can also check that out. Lots of just generally great information in there as well. But, um, yeah, that’s, it is, it’s so fascinating because people often think that my job, you know, as a sex therapist, it’s like, all I do is talk about like tips and tricks or something.
And it’s like pretty much none of what I talk about. You know, um,
issues are generally not in technique.
They’re not, and I think what happens is when we like resolve these actual root issues, like attachment wounds, the techniques take care of themselves, right? Because you’re communicating well and you’re exploring and you feel safe to kind of take the risks to explore.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Totally agree. So, so the avoidance, they’ve got a different, you know, the avoidance have a different outlook on sex, right? So, so, um, they can easily separate sex from love. Uh, for them it’s much more a physical act, it’s about a release, um, avoidance are generally not looking to emotionally bond during sex.
Um, they’re enjoying sex because it’s, you know, it’s fun. Uh, it’s, it’s a dopamine exchange for them. Uh, like, you know, I’ll do this for you. Then you do this for me. Okay, great. We’ve both had a great time. See you in a month. I
So true.
don’t want you to stay over and have breakfast the next morning. They don’t,
Yeah.
you know, you talk about relationship and they go, they turn white, like, But listen, you know, some avoided men are very, very performative in bed because again, they see it as an exchange almost, right?
So it’s like, I’m going to give you the time of your life. You’re going to do the same for me. Gray, we’ll meet every second Tuesday. Right? Like, so, so some of them can be, um, really, really exciting in that regard. Very performative. Um, so we do see that, um, they also, here’s an interesting thing. We know that avoidance are, you know, they’re not comfortable with vulnerability, right?
So, how does this play out in sex? They tend to favor sexual positions where you’re not face to face. So this, yeah,
much sense. Yes.
So this deep, you know, stare into my eyes as you make love to me, that is not their strategy. They would rather look at any other body parts. Right. So any other, you know, we know there are some beautiful positions where you can be face to face and then there’s a whole bunch of beautiful positions where you’re not.
Right. Yes.
And that’s where they prefer to be.
And that’s, that is so interesting because I will also share, sometimes I do share personal information on here when I think it’s helpful, but I do think part of my journey has sometimes been difficulty with eye contact, but I think it was almost, there’s almost like a self consciousness there.
Like, oh, my God, this is so intense. I’m like being seen,
Right.
but then, so then, yeah, it would be easier sometimes to orgasm when you didn’t have to like, look at the person, but I think it also reduced some self consciousness, but then, but now, and again, healing journey. Um, now I feel like I really enjoy it. It still can be uncomfortable in moments or I still might look away for a second, but it’s like, okay, wow.
Like, cause you’re, you’re being with, there’s something about eye contact that like really humanizes people. And so you’re like, okay, I’m like with really present with this other person. Um, and so I do think that, I mean, I see, I love it now, but, uh, there’s been a journey with that.
I love that you recognize that in yourself. Um, and, and even though you just recognize it and then you do it a little bit and like you, you, you’ve sort of allowed yourself to be slightly uncomfortable, you know, even in the moment, but that’s okay.
is. Okay. Sometimes we need to push ourselves in a healthy way.
Yeah, 100%. Now, the interesting thing is we talked about the anxious preoccupied if they’re stressed about relational issues. They will use sex as a form to repair, to, you know, to get closer to their partner. The avoidants will actually pull away. So, the avoidant will likely stop having sex if they’re feeling stressed.
Interesting. That makes,
they use very different strategies.
I’m seeing that with some clients I’m thinking of right now. Yeah.
the, what we know is the strategies that are used by the anxious folks, they’re called activating strategies. So I’m, I’m actively coming towards you to try to close the gap and to build the closeness. The avoidance use deactivating strategy. They deactivate from the relationship and they go into a mode of self preservation and they seek, they seek their creature comfort.
So for them, that might be, they’ll stay home alone for three days, watch Netflix, uh, you know, eat a bag of chips for lunch. Like they just, they’re, and that’s how they’re regulating their nervous system.
Wow, that’s so interesting. Okay. Alright, I know we have to be like somewhat conscious of time, but let’s get the last group in. So the, the fearful avoidance. What are they like with sex?
so the fearful avoidance is, uh, is, um, a mixed bag,
Okay.
right? So because as you would expect a bit disorganized,
Yep, yep.
so the fearful avoidance are about seven to 10 percent of our population. So. 20 percent are anxiously attached, 20 percent are avoidantly attached, and then 7 10%, so that gives us close to 100. Um, because we talked about that the fearful avoidance Um, there could be abuse in their past.
This sometimes comes into play. So it does make sense. And again, they also have traits of anxious and avoidance, and they tend to lean one side or the other. And so what we see with fearful avoidance is some are, um, demonstrate what we call hypersexuality.
Oh, okay.
So, you know, they become promiscuous. In some ways, they see this as the only way to get attention.
Um, you know, they’ll also engage in risky behavior. This is all out of the anxious preoccupied camp.
Okay. That makes a lot
But, but they don’t, they don’t want, uh, you know, the make love to me situation, right? It’s sort of like, let’s have a night of fun and go home.
That makes sense, because it’s like, uh, sometimes I describe this one as, like, skittish. It’s almost like, I want closeness, and also it’s, like, very scary, so let’s just, yeah. It’s like, there’s like a little push pull internally, I feel like.
But that’s, you’re right on the money, right? It’s like, so, um, in romantic terms, the fa, the fearful of WI is often called the hot and the cold partner.
mm hmm.
So that’s sort of the term that’s often used, but they oscillate. It’s also, they also, depending on who they’re interacting with. So if you and I were in a romantic relationship and I’m avoidant or fearful avoidant, and you are anxious, preoccupied.
hmm.
That would trigger me to become more avoidant.
Right. That makes so much sense. And I think we all have that. It’s like, as our partner moves further away from secure, it pushes us towards whatever our tendency is. You know? So it’s, yeah, it’s very interesting how it
Yeah, if we haven’t done the work.
Yes.
Right? Yes, of course. Yeah. So, I mean, the other, the other side of the fearful avoidant is sometimes they really just don’t want sex to be a part of their life at all.
I can see that.
Yeah. Not necessarily that they’re asexual, they just, they the, you know, the biggest issue, I will be betrayed.
I don’t trust, uh, it takes a lot of trust,
Yeah, it
to allow someone into your realm in a sexual way. Uh,
vulnerable.
opt out.
Right, it’s vulnerable emotionally, like I said with the eye contact, it’s vulnerable physically, it’s like you’re getting naked, you don’t know how they’re going to react to your naked body, you don’t know if things are going to go well or not, you may be exposing yourself to potential STIs or pregnancy, you know, like there’s all of these risks that if this is someone who’s like, you know, risks have not gone well for me in the past, you know, like, no thank you.
And so we see those polarities, right. Some sexual avoidance are hypersexual and some are like, sex. No, thank
Absolutely.
it doesn’t mean they’re asexual.
I agree. There’s many reasons why people have sex that are not all related to attraction or expression of feelings, and there’s many reasons people don’t have sex.
Yeah, there’s, I mean, on the avoidant camp is, you know, a lot of people who are on the void and prefer solo sex
That
don’t have to engage in any level of emotion or vulnerability. So when I say that, you know, those that are fearful avoidance that of course, if they’re more avoidance, you know, maybe they prefer solo sex.
So they still have a sexual desire, just this, there’ll be, there’ll be shutting down the idea of partnered
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Makes sense. Thanks Sam.
Does it? Yeah, this is just like such a rich topic. This has been so awesome. Uh, having this discussion and I hope people listening have enjoyed it as much as I have. Um, if people are just like, okay, Bev knows a lot of stuff about this. Like, how can I find out more about her or follow her or work with her?
Like where, where should we send people?
Thank you. That’s so great. Um, everything’s on my website at securelyloved. com. Uh, we were also on Instagram at securely underscore loves. Um, We have a free attachment quiz on our website. It’s like a five minute thing just to give you an idea of where you fall, um, so you can take that. It’s completely confidential.
The results don’t come to me. They just go to you.
That’s really
Um, and, uh, also we offer, um, 20 minute free consults if people want to book with us
Okay.
you know, see if this is the right service. It’s not, it’s not just me, by the way. I, I have a whole group.
Oh, cool.
of practitioners that work with me and they’re fantastic. So I know everyone’s seeing my face today.
Um, but you know, depending on where you’re coming from, you may choose to work with another practitioner in the group as well.
I love that. It’s a, it’s, it’s very important work that you’re doing in the world. Um, it, it really is. So, and I, and I
You too.
I, and I really want to say to the people listening, like, if you know, you have insecure attachment, please, please work on it. Like, it’s just, it’s. It’s uncomfortable as most work is But very important and worth it and will really change your life.
So, um, but yeah, so thank you Bev for being here. This is great. We’ll link to your website in the show notes so everyone can find you And everybody listening. 📍 Thank you. I love you, and we will catch you next week for another episode. Bye everybody
Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We are very happy to have you here. If you are a new listener, you are very, very welcome. Um, if you guys ever need to reach out to me, you can do that through my website, heathershannon. co. Again, that’s heathershannon. co. And don’t forget to follow the show.
It’s such a small thing. It takes a second. It’s free. And it helps the show so much. So if you want more people to get this kind of Honest and uncensored sex education and relationship advice. Follow it, share it with a friend. If you’re on YouTube, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and we will catch you next time, everybody.