This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body, because it’s time for you to ask a sex therapist.

Hey everybody, and welcome to this episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. We are going to talk about why nice guys. Don’t finish last with Matt Artisan and I’m really excited about it. But before we get to that, I am going to read the review of the week. So if this is your review, reach out to us and you win a bundle of books on sex and relationships from my Amazon store.

So this one says, good job. I never thought that I would ever listen to a podcast like this because I never felt comfortable talking about this stuff, probably because I was raised in that way, but you made it very comfortable for me talking about topics that are difficult for a lot of people to face, including myself.

Really something else of the podcast. Keep it up. Thank you guys for that review. As always, they’re very appreciated. I know most of you are probably driving while you’re listening to this and have to remember later. So let me introduce today’s guest so we can get into our topic. Matt Artisan is the leading expert in transforming the lives of men and empowering them to create authentic relationships.

He was voted world’s best new dating coach and over the past 10 years has personally coached men in 40 different countries and has been featured on ABC News Nightline, Fox, Newsweek, Vice and more. So thank you so much Matt for being here. How are you?

Hey Heather. Doing good. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, um, I will tell you guys a little backstory of how Matt and I know each other. So as you just heard from his intro, Matt is kind of a badass. And I don’t know if that was said the Netflix one, but he’s also been on Netflix. We were part of a, like an entrepreneur house. group thing in Rio de Janeiro back in 2016 and this was before I was even a sex therapist.

I was just a therapist at the time and kind of exploring digital nomad life and uh, you know, Matt was already doing this coaching, so he’s been doing it for a long time. He knows what’s up, and I’d actually love to hear, Matt, if you could explain to people, like, how did you get into this? I’m kind of curious, like, was there a little personal journey for you?

Um, did you see that there was a need for it? Like, how did this come to be? It’s a pretty unique job.

Yeah, it’s a good question, Heather. I definitely struggled quite a bit in my teenage years. In high school and in college, um, I studied computer science in college and didn’t have a lot of friends, didn’t know how to talk to women, just felt very insecure, unsure of myself, like just no success with women basically, high school and college.

I remember being so afraid to even like, like talk to guys. I had a buddy in my computer science class who introduced me to a bunch of athletic guys. I was not that.

And I

was so intimidated, sitting with them for lunch every day, my sophomore year, I wouldn’t say anything, I would like say one or two words maybe, for the whole lunch, for thirty minutes.

That’s like

hard to believe, just because, I mean I think because we hung out socially, and like I know how you are now. It is hard to imagine, so this is like a full on transformation, because I mean, when we were in Brazil, I remember you would just like, chat up any girl on the street, and just like, like it was a breeze.

And we’re like, where’s Matt? Oh, he’s talking to a girl.

Yeah, it was a long, long transformation. I started actually, one of my first steps was starting a rock band. I thought, that’s going to be the solution. So in college, I started a band, and we became, well, after a few bands, it wasn’t the first band that I started, but.

Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a few, but I think it became pretty successful. We toured with a bunch of big bands like Linkin Park. Did

not know this about you. Yeah, we were actually

on MTV for a little bit. So

cool. So my confidence went

way up and I actually started getting successful with women. At the same time, I was reading like lots of books on confidence and what to say, what to do when it came to approaching women.

And it was easy in a sense. Or easier having a band because I would just go up to girls and be like, Hey, do you like rock music? I’m playing at a band. We’re playing at the Troubadour next week. Come check us out. So I was doing good for a while. My confidence was up. And then my band broke up in 2008. And that’s when things just went really bad.

I felt like my whole identity was gone. And I felt even worse than when I had started. And then became kind of depressed. I had like no money at the time.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

Sounds stressful.

It was.

That kind of makes sense though. Like I think like hearing your journey, it’s kind of like you’re propping it up with this like external circumstance of being in a band, which I think We all look to like our external circumstances sometimes to, to figure out or to try and make ourselves feel better.

Like if I have this success, then I can feel successful. If I, you know, have enough money, I can feel confident with women. If I have enough status, you know, if I have

muscles or yeah, my case, it was if I have a certain level of fame or success,

yeah, they’ll

see me on stage, then they’ll think I’m cool. And then they’ll like me.

Yeah. Right, it’s like all these conditions. But then when that

went away, it was like, okay, now why would they like me? I don’t have that cool factor anymore. I felt worse.

So how did you dig yourself out of that? This is like multi layered journey, I like it.

Yeah, I started, um, researching even more, and I started I started taking some workshops in Los Angeles where I was living.

There were some pick up artists workshops there. Oh

yes. I

think, I

remember that guy, Magic, on MTV, I think. Mystery. Wasn’t there a pick up artist? Mystery, yeah. Mystery, thank you. Okay. Yeah, I

was watching that show. That was like 2008. Um. It was a

fascinating show.

Yeah, that got me into it, read the book, the game, and then I just started attending workshops, and it was all pick up based, like, say this and do this.

So, the good thing is, I went from focusing on having, like, having the success, then I’ll be good with women, having fame, then I’ll be good with women, to doing, I was doing all this stuff, like, running around, approaching women all the time. Which helped me get better and better, but I reached a point where I was getting success, but then my success started going down, because like I was trying to memorize all these things to say and all these things to do, and I think it became like having this giant file cabinet where you have so many files, it takes a while to access them.

You know, I had, like, information overload. I was selling garage doors at the time with my computer science degree. My parents were so proud

of me. This is a great backstory.

And, uh, I was selling garage doors. So I was driving all over L. A. But I was listening to all these CDs at the time.

And just,

like, My head with information, and it was around that time that I started teaching other people too.

I wanted to, you know, help other people because my band broke up. I was like, what am I gonna do with my life now? I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna sell garage doors for the rest of my life. And I didn’t wanna go into computer science anymore because,

and you’d read enough books by then. I read enough. I knew everything.

So I started

teaching it and I realized at one point a guy in a workshop that I was just helping out at. He went up to me, he was like, I can’t remember all the lines and routines that the guru taught, so I don’t know what to do, but I want to approach this girl. And I said something like, well, what do you want to say to her?

What do you think of her? And he said, well, I think she’s attractive. I think she’s cute.

Yeah.

And I said, well, why don’t you just tell her that? Can you do that? I was like, I don’t know. Try it. Try it. So then, he went and did it, and then he came back, he’s like, that was so much easier and that worked.

Oh, I love that.

It’s like this cutting through instead of like the overthinking and trying to be a certain way.

Exactly. Because it was, when you, when you’re focusing on the doing, it’s so much think about and remember and it becomes this analytical process and you become in your head when connecting with people is not.

It’s about an intellectual thing, it’s about just vibing with the person, and it’s about how you’re being, and, you know, it’s more of a feeling thing, and of course women are not attracted to the logical things, they’re not like, oh, well, he makes this much money and he has muscles, so I will be attracted to him, no, it’s all based on how they feel.

So instead of focusing on not so much the doing, but the being, how are you being? Oh my god,

that’s so refreshing. And I love that you just kind of organically, like, found your way to what felt authentic for you as a coach and for your clients.

Right. It was a process. Yeah.

I mean, it sounds like you’ve been at this for a while,

so.

But I also feel like that’s who makes the best coaches. I mean, people who have been doing this stuff for a while and have, like, been through their own journey and have also learned through helping others, so.

Yeah. My business partner tried to, he asked me, how many dates do you think you’ve been on? And I tried to, I don’t know.

I haven’t kept track of every single one, but it was like hundreds, like probably over 500, maybe even close to a thousand, and like 5, 000 plus approaches, something like that. I think you have to

be up there, because I’m probably close to 300, personally, and I know you’re, you’re well above where I’m at, probably.

And these are instant

dates, like meeting somebody and then going on a date with them right, right in the, right there. Right then and there.

Okay, can you just break down that concept? Because I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of that.

You’ve never been on an instant date? I

don’t think an instant date or heard that term, so explain it to us.

It’s when a guy approaches a girl, usually in an everyday situation, like walking down the street at a coffee shop, and then she’s like, hey, let’s go grab coffee right now. Let’s go grab ice cream. And you go hang out, you stop doing whatever it is that you were doing, and then you go hang out.

That’s so interesting.

I think I, so I did have one of those in January, actually. Um, I was at PodFest actually and there was another conference and sat next to a guy at the hotel bar after not getting service at one of the tables and we wound up chatting and then we went out to the karaoke thing and

I didn’t

realize that that was an instant date but I guess it was.

Yeah. Well, I deal with all the chatting back and forth. It’s nice.

You know? Do it

right then and there, if it’s possible, if you’re not busy, if the other person’s not busy. I think,

I think it worked out because it’s like you’re at a conference or like if you’re on vacation, it’s probably easy. Like in everyday life, it might be a little more challenging, but, uh, it’s kind of a fun concept of like, that’s another like cutting through, like cutting through all of the like back and forth and check your calendar and you know.

Yeah, that’s why I like to, and I recommend meeting people at the, at a beach if you’re living near a beach. We actually, I don’t know if you remember back in Brazil, I made a video with some of the people that were in our group on how to approach women at the beach.

Did you?

Anyway, it was like the last day.

Yeah, I think you were there. Pretty sure everybody was there.

That’s awesome.

And, but yeah, beaches, parks, people were, places on the weekend especially when people aren’t in a big hurry. Maybe like a farmer’s market. These are good strategies. You know, they’re just like casually shopping, they’re not in a hurry.

Yeah.

Those are the best places, usually.

So, okay. So, can I tell you about a few of my, like, client situations that, like, guy clients especially have talked to me about?

Yeah, let’s hear it. Okay.

So, I have a client, um, that I’ve seen before and I’m actually working with him again now and so much about his life has improved, right?

So, it’s like his mental health has improved, his general health has improved, his business is profitable and successful, he, you know, moved somewhere a little bit more in alignment for him. And the social piece just feels like a blockage still, you know, kind of like you were saying, like, even like friend wise, somewhat, definitely dating wise, um, sometimes he tries to put himself out there, you know, with people he comes across, but it’s like something’s not quite landing and it’s like, you know, it’s tough.

It’s like, I’m not there. So if I was, I’d probably have a lot more information, but so I only have his perspective to go on. Um, But yeah, like what are the things that kind of could be going wrong when like guys think they’re just being nice and friendly and putting themselves out there and seeing if someone wants to hang out and then the person kind of like, it’s like, okay, that was like, let’s not hang out anymore.

Let’s not talk anymore. Or No, no, thanks. What do you think?

They have a lot of success in business, and of course it’s because they’re smart, and they’re good at their job, but it’s also what they think about as far as like how they’re being in a job situation is oftentimes like just really nice and friendly to everybody, so they’re likable, and so, you know, their job is fairly safe if everybody likes them, so they translate that to dating, And they overdo it sometimes, where they’re just like overly nice.

Like, you want to be a good, kind person, but you don’t want to be supplicating to that person. You don’t want to be bending over backwards, because what happens is the woman feels like, Okay. This guy isn’t being real. He’s putting on a front or a mask and pretending to be the super nice guy and giving me everything I want.

And at some level, a lot of women like that. They’ll go on the trips with the guy and they’ll go and have expensive meals with them because who doesn’t like those things? But they’re losing, they’re not attracted to him or they are in the beginning but they start losing attraction. Just too nice. Which, again, she feels like that’s not the real him because, I mean,

she really

wants a guy who is going for what he wants, like he’s, he’s not putting on a mask, right?

He’ll tease her if he thinks, you know, there’s something funny to tease her about, but a nice guy wouldn’t tease a woman, right? He would He would hide that part. He’s like, Oh, I can’t rock the boat. I have this beautiful woman. I need to be on my best behavior.

So he’s

acting different usually than he is with his friends.

Although some nice guys, and that’s what we call them, even though it’s like a misnomer, because again, it’s good to be a nice person. I don’t really like that term. Better term is wuss. That’s really what it is. Right? You’re the guy who usually Or I’m just

like doormat.

Yeah, doormat. Exactly. Yep, people walk all over them, they don’t stand up for themselves.

Yeah, right, and like the, it’s like they’re putting, I think you might mention this in some of your videos, like they put the woman on a pedestal and so there’s like, they’re like creating this power imbalance and like if somebody is trying to approach me and they’re kind of putting themselves beneath me, like I feel that and it’s unattractive.

You know? Yeah. A woman

usually wants a man that she deems is the same level, or even like, she sees as like, Oh, this guy is like, not necessarily better, but just higher status or value or whatever you want to call it. Not beneath her. Yeah. You know, he has to do these things to impress her so that he can come up

and

pick up what they would teach is, okay, she’s up here because she’s hot and the value, unfortunately, like a lot of it’s based on looks, not all, but, and then you come in here because you’re not that good looking, you don’t have that great of a job, you’re not a millionaire or whatever.

Okay. You don’t have the muscles yet, so you’re down here. So you have bring her down to your level by insulting her, essentially, they call it neg.

Oh yes, Negging! Can you explain Negging? Because, like, I remember this from the history stuff.

That’s what Negging is, basically. It’s a backhanded compliment. So it sounds like a compliment, but it’s more of an insult.

And I used to do this. I remember, I would say things like, Oh, go like this. You have some, some eye boogers. Right. It wasn’t even true, right? She didn’t have anything there. But it was, it was like, oh my god, are you serious?

Oh my

god. And it was, I felt, it was kind of funny. But I felt a lot, I felt bad.

Because it’s like, I just tortured her. So, and

I just, I love that you’ve like gone through like multiple transformations with this. So like, If you’re not negging someone, how do you equalize the playing field? Like, how do you? So instead of

bringing her down to your level, be up here because it’s not, it’s mostly a mindset.

Yeah, there are other factors that, you know, make you seem like you’re up here. If she’s a 10, you’re a 10. But it’s really like how you see yourself. If you believe you’re a 10. Or a 9 or whatever, if you see yourself as equal to her, then you’re going to come into that interaction comfortable, calm, because she’s just another human being.

She has insecurities and fears. You’re not going to be like, oh my gosh, she’s perfect. I need to, you know, I’m going to be all nervous if I’m talking to somebody that I think is way higher status than me and perfect. I’m going to be super nervous. And we’re doing all these things to impress them, which, of course, as we know, doesn’t impress them, makes them lose interest very quickly.

Yeah,

it does. So, I guess, I’m hearing you, and I know how important confidence is, and like, when I think about sexual attraction, I think so too. so much of it is, like, your sexual energy and, like, what kind of energy you’re bringing forward. But, I can see somebody listening and kind of being like, psh, yeah, but I don’t have the muscles and I don’t have the money and I don’t have the looks or whatever, so, like, you know, is that actually going to work?

Like, just telling myself to be confident, like, how do you see people get there and does it really work? When they feel confident, but don’t have some of those other things.

Yeah, and like, I mean, those things do help. I’m not gonna lie. Like when I had a brand, I felt more

confident. So,

um, you know, if you have the money, if you have the looks, the height, whatever, those superficial things, it can help.

But if you lose those things, then it usually all goes away, like it did for me. Right. Whereas, so that’s like external confidence. What we work on is, we do work on those things, like we have clients that are overweight, we tell them, lose the weight, if they don’t dress well, we tell them, we show them how to dress, like, we help them with their wardrobe, all of that, because it does help, for sure.

Um, but it’s really about core confidence, which is It’s really about loving yourself and accepting yourself with your flaws as well, especially the flaws you can’t change. Change the ones you can, but there’s certain things which is never going to change like height or race, et cetera, and you got to love yourself despite those flaws because if you don’t love yourself, you can’t expect somebody else to love you.

But if you do, then somebody will. Right. And maybe it’s

not a flaw. I mean, I know, I do think women are really superficial about height. Um, which drives me crazy, and I try to tell them not to do that. And there’s actually research that shorter guys are more satisfying husbands. So for my short King’s listening,

my one of my best friends is five one.

Can you tell everybody I’m five, one and three quarters. And I knew him before he was successful. He’s very successful in business now, but I knew him when he was just kind of getting started. And so, you know, nobody knew who he was back then. And he still did really well with women, and it’s because of his confidence.

I remember when I saw him walk into the room. That’s impressive. He was facilitating a, um, a personal development workshop that I was taking. And I was like, who is this guy? I didn’t think he was that short, because he just had so much charisma. That’s fascinating. So, it’s, and, and, you know, talking to him, it was all about the inner work that he did.

Okay. He did tons and tons of work, because he was insecure about it, of course. But now he’s not at all. That’s amazing. Now I don’t think he would change it. If he, if there was like a genie that could make him tall, I don’t think he would,

he would do it. That’s so cool. Cause I mean, that’s pretty short. And like there’s, most women are taller than that.

So that, I would goes for tall women.

Like. Really? A woman that’s like five, nine or. Below he wouldn’t talk to you. Like Julie goes for like his girlfriend, 6369. I

feel like

I love him already. He’s on so delightful.

He’ll be on the next.

Maybe. Yeah. Maybe he should sounds like he has good vibes. Um, Okay, so, so confidence does go a long way, is like the moral of that story, but I don’t have to.

Yeah, I

think we know that. Like every, every guy knows that, but then it’s like, how do you develop it? So that’s what we help our clients do. We help them, we go through a process, through workshops, um, live workshops. Also online to help develop that core confidence we bring in models so they can role play with the models so they can you know Cuz that’s like all this shit comes up, right?

The thing that keeps you from having core confidence is all your baggage your emotional baggage your limiting beliefs your sexual shame all that crap Yep, been piling up and it’s like It’s like, you know, it’s almost like, what’s that, what are those cartoons where it’s like a ball and chain? That’s what I’m thinking.

We have like a ball and chain.

That

totally makes sense.

You can’t move

forward until you cut off that ball and chain. So you unlock it. It’s like your

emotional baggage. It’s like, and I hear what you’re saying. It’s like there’s kind of this ideal that’s presented to all of us humans about like, you know, this is what’s most attractive.

And, you know, I try to get people away from there’s one thing that’s most attractive. I’m like, what if we just erase that? And it’s like, just not even the case anymore. Um, and what if we kind of are able to see what’s attractive about all sorts of different people, but we still live in this world. So, you know, we’re not there yet as a society we can, we can work on it.

But, um, Yeah, I love that idea of just owning it,

like

you said, you know, you said owning your flaws and I’m like, whether or not they’re like flaws, you know, perception, but like, I actually think it’s very attractive. I remember, um, someone I dated years ago, and we did it for a couple years. He was like a little OCD.

And by a little I mean, he should be diagnosed. By

a little you mean a lot.

Yeah. Like he would do a little routine before leaving his house. And it was like when we first started dating, it was just like, okay, I like check the doorknobs to make sure things are locked. And then it was like, and now I’m checking the stove, and now I’m checking the outlets, and now I’m going to go through twice and do it.

I was like, oh man. Um, but he was like, kind of just like, whatever, this is just how I am. And I was like, huh. And it almost like trained me to be like, Okay, whatever. I’ll just, like, if that’s how he feels, then that’s how I’ll feel. It’s like, okay, whatever. It takes him a couple minutes, then we go.

Um, Exactly.

If it’s no big deal for the guy, usually it becomes no big deal for the girl. But if it is a big deal, and you, you know, she can tell if you feel insecure about something. Even if you don’t say it, you just tell. Women are very intuitive, and then that’s going to be a turn off. Right, if that guy was like apologizing every time, sorry, I know it’s a problem, I’m working on

it, then you’d

probably get even more annoyed.

Oh, for sure! So I think that, and I feel like that with clients too, it’s like we kind of train people how to react, you know, like I did an episode about, you know, herpes and the stigma around herpes, and um, you know, I’ve had clients that I’ve worked with It’s actually, this is a fascinating one. Clients who just owned it and like, whatever.

I take the medication to prevent outbreaks. It’s never been an issue with dating or relationships. And then you have other people, same issue. Right. And they’re kind of like, Oh my God, I don’t feel like I can date anyone. Or like, I, you know, I don’t, I don’t know what to tell them. And like, how do I tell them?

And I feel like they’re going to have a bad reaction. And then they have the lived experience of having people that have a bad reaction. I do. I think we train people how to react to us.

Yup. And again, it all stems from our insecurities. So you gotta, again, you gotta own it. Own your flaws, too. A great exercise is to write down everything that you’re insecure about, that you cannot change, and then figure out what is great about it.

What are the pros of it? That’s a hard one, like herpes, because that’s something you can’t change, but what are the advantages of it? I bet if you actually did it, you’d come up with a list of advantages of even something like that.

I, I can think of one like what if you, you know, you have herpes and it forces you to like have an emotional conversation with someone before you have sex.

And then you kind of see like, is this somebody who, you know, can handle that kind of conversation or not?

Yeah. It might make you more selective who you sleep with. Yep.

Mm hmm.

There’s a lot of things that could come out of it.

Yeah. I think so too. That’s a fascinating exercise though. So everyone, that’s your homework from Matt to do an exercise on your perceived flaws and how they actually have benefits.

I love that. That’s just like a great way. Um, how else do you feel like people can improve their confidence? Like, cause I agree with you. I think confidence is probably the main thing. How much of it is like just practice with like attractive, like, I think it’s interesting that you bring in models and have these, you know, attractive women.

for people to practice with. Because I do think it’s just experiential. And I think that’s where, you know, coaching and therapy is not typically experiential. And I do think sometimes people need to have a lived experience to help them shift their like neural pathways and thought patterns.

Yeah, definitely.

That kind of goes back to the different types of confidence, right? There’s competent confidence, which is like when you’re good at something, and you feel confident about that thing, about doing that thing. You know, I used to play guitar. So I was very confident when I had a guitar in my hand and going on stage and all that, but not in the beginning.

In the beginning, I sucked. And the first time I went on stage, it was terrifying, but it’s the same kind of thing with women, right? So you can build confidence by talking to a lot of women, by practicing, even in our mentorship, which is partly online, partly offline. Okay. You can practice role playing on zoom.

Every single week multiple times a week so they get that feedback and then when they go out there Yeah, it’s not the same thing, but it’s the next best thing then they’re practicing on real women and You know, we’re analyzing those approaches to actually so they you know, the more you practice you get good at it Yeah, I mean a live workshop We bring in live models, so they’re practicing, you know, actually body language and everything.

Oh, that’s fascinating. And then they go out in the field and we actually mic them up and we give them feedback on their interaction. Oh my god,

I love that.

So, we even film them a little bit so they can see it afterwards. Like, look, this is what you’re doing right. That is

so helpful. Look at how you’re hunched

over or whatever.

It’s

fascinating because as I’m hearing this, I’m like, you have to be so brave, I think, to like, go do stuff like that and like, be filmed. And so it’s interesting that like we can be so brave in certain ways. And then, like, not as confident or brave in other ways.

And most guys have no issue with that.

They’re like, yeah, mic me up, give me feedback. I mean, they’re nervous, you know, a lot of times. Yeah. A couple times, but we help with the nerves. We give them exercises. Okay. Some of them are, you know, breathing and more internal exercises to ground themselves and get present. Okay. Other are just exercises to, like, take action right away no matter what.

Can you give us like

one of each of those? Cause I feel like when I’m thinking of another male client now, who is kind of like, well, what do I just, what do I say to this girl? Or I have, you know, I have a crush on this girl, or I saw this girl at a bar and then like, what I’m supposed to go up to her and be like, whatever.

I’m like, I kind of said what you said of like, just go say why you wanted to talk to her. Like there’s a reason you’re drawn to her. Like maybe just. Go say that don’t censor yourself. Um, but I, I can imagine like, or I’m like lower the stakes, you know, in your head, like quit making it like this, you know, what we say,

but it’s not, it’s not the words that matter.

We give exercises on some of our advanced. Like, go tell her your favorite food, like, that’s your opener. I like cheese. And then they just stand there, maybe they’re gonna laugh like you are, and other times they’re just like, what did you say? I like cheese.

I enjoy absurd humor, so that would definitely crack me up.

I would be like, what?

And they realize like, wow, that can even work because it’s not about what you say. Again, it’s how you’re being. If you’re, if you’re having a good time and you’re going to have a positive mental attitude, you’re enjoying yourself and you walk up to her like just saying hello and we’re great.

That’s one of my favorite things to do is like a girl walking down the street. I stop her. So first, you know, I got to stop her. I can’t just say hello that she’s going to walk by. I’m like, hey, real quick. Hold on one second. I got to tell you something. She stopped. She’s like, hi. And then usually she’s like, oh, hi.

Usually starts lighting up. And she’s, you know, even like a little turned on.

Yeah. What you’re saying to me is also like there’s like a pattern disruptor, like, aspect of it. Where you’re just, it’s like almost like, uh, like, oh, that’s not what normally happens, you know? Like I can see. Being on the receiving end of that and it kind of is like, oh, like you’re caught off guard, but kind of in a fun way, like you’re saying.

Yeah, women can tell how you’re, how you’re feeling, how you’re being. So if I say hi in a nervous way, she’s gonna be like, okay, hi, what is going on? But if I actually feel turned on by her in that moment, even though it’s two seconds that she stops and I say it in a more turned on tone that possibly will turn her on Even the word hi, because it’s not

saying

I mean, I can probably do it and not say anything.

Just look at her for three seconds. You might look at her like, what? But

yeah,

if I’m doing it properly, like she’s going to feel my intentions, even just. You know, through the nonverbal, through my eye contact, tonality, all that. Well, I guess there’s no tonality if I don’t say anything. But, it’s nice to work.

So, can we also talk about like, so everything you’re saying makes so much sense. And I hope, I would think that people listening also agree that it makes sense. Um. But these guys were kind of like, Oh, well, you know, I’m too nice or like, I gotta, now I gotta be a dick because all women want are like bad boys.

And so I’ve had enough people say this to me. That’s why I reached out to you. Cause I was just like, no, this is not the takeaway. You know, I think part of it is what we said about putting women on a pedestal and being a doormat. Right. That’s not really what nice is. So like, what do you think is that balance of like being a nice human, like you’ve mentioned, but still

being

flirty and bringing that sexual energy?

Yeah.

It’s knowing your intentions because the thing about bad boys or assholes that women like, it’s not that they get treated like crap, but it’s that they’re real and they make their intentions known. And they go for what they want without apologizing for it.

Okay.

You know? They might, the bad boy might make it very clear, like, I am not going to be in a relationship with you.

We are only having sex. That’s it. And not necessarily like saying it like that, but just like let that be known very quick. And then the nice guy’s wondering, like, why is she sleeping with him? He’s like sleeping with half the town,

but it’s

because she met somebody authentic. That’s what it is. So if a woman can meet a guy who’s authentic.

Uh, honest and authentic and masculine, goes for what he wants, you know, isn’t afraid of it, has boundaries,

you know,

isn’t afraid to get his needs met, but he’s also a nice human. Like he’s a, he’s a kind person.

Right.

That’s much better than being an asshole. It’s like the nice guy usually doesn’t get any, anything, he just ends up in the friend zone all the time.

Uh huh. And

then he sees the asshole getting girls.

Right.

Right. Right. What’s better than that is not becoming the asshole is becoming the middle ground, whatever you want to call it. We call it the attractive man. He’s got

the edge. He’s got the edge.

But he’s also a good, kind, decent person. He has a moral edge and doesn’t treat people like crap, you know, he treats her with respect.

Okay. But he’s

going to be on his path, his purpose, even on the date, he’s not going to be like, hey, what do you want to do? I’ll do anything you want to do. So

please do. No, he’s going to

say, hey, this is what we’re going to do. We’re going to go here and here and here. And if she says, no, I don’t like that first place.

And that’s where we’re going. Right. The attractive guy is gonna say, okay, cool. We’ll go somewhere else. Like, nothing’s a big deal. He’s just like, changing the plan. Okay. There’s not a dick about it. He’s just like, okay. I mean, he might tease her and have fun with it.

Right.

But, you know, he’s just gonna keep leading.

In the direction that he wants. He basically leads in the direction that he wants to go. Okay. But he takes her, uh, You know, opinion, security, safety, what she wants into consideration.

Whereas

the nice guy only cares about, only cares about that. The asshole doesn’t care about that at all. The attractive man is in the middle.

Like, he does what he wants, but he

That makes sense. Takes her

consideration.

Right. Right. Right. He’s at least like offering a plan or like coming up with an idea, you know, because I think that’s the whole phrase, like a man with a plan, you know, like I don’t want someone who’s dictating or telling me everything that, you know, is going to happen.

But if someone’s like, Hey, I know you like blah, blah, blah. I thought we could go here. I’m like, Oh, that’s

so

nice. Um, like, Oh, that’s thoughtful. It shows initiative, you know? So to me, that’s like that happy middle ground. But yeah, if somebody is like, Deferring to me excessively. It also makes me feel like burdened, like I have to now like figure everything out.

And I thought where I was just going to be able to like relax and have a good time. Um, and the other piece I think it’s almost like he and this is the authentic piece. I think it’s like he’s not really showing up. And that same relationship I mentioned with the OCD guy, it kind of ended because I feel like he was not showing up in certain ways.

And like, no one wants to be in a relationship with themselves. Oops. Where it’s just like, you’re just there taking up space, you know, not having any ideas, not having any opinions, not, you know, almost, it’s almost like a people pleaser type of thing.

Exactly. And

it’s like, we want, I think all of us, regardless of gender, to What kind of music do you

like?

Yeah. Oh, whatever kind of music you like, honey. No. Right,

exactly. No, no,

no. It’s

like It’s like, I want to be in a relationship with a person.

Yeah, you guys think like, oh, to build rapport and connect, we need to like all the same things. It’s not true. You can like all different things. I mean, not all different things, but it’s not about having the same or even similar interests.

It’s about how you guys feel together and that you’re understood and that the other person listens to you and considers you. And when it’s masculine feminine relationship, it’s that, you know, the man, well I shouldn’t say the masculine in the relationship because even

gay

relationships or lesbian relationships are going to have a masculine feminine, but the masculine is leading because if it doesn’t then the person who is more feminine in the relationship will become more masculine.

In those moments, and if that happens too much, you depolarize, you either become kind of neutral like friends, there’s no masculine, feminine polarity.

Yeah.

Or you just like, you don’t like each other anymore and you fight all the time. Yeah.

Oh, that’s interesting. I do think that happens. I mean, a lot of people I work with, it’s like they’re, they come and this makes sense with with sex.

It’s like they come to me and they’re great friends. But they’ve lost the sexual spark and it could be because of the lack of polarity, right? Like yeah, I was trying to like please everyone else or so need a leader in the

bedroom It’s the same kind of thing. I think a lot of relationships depolarize because you become so familiar with each other and comfortable and then you’re not really like the man isn’t like Manning up.

Yeah. So to

speak. You know. Okay. Not taking her on dates and leaving anymore. And then that can happen in the bedroom, too. You just get kind of complacent and lazy.

Yeah. And it can

happen on both sides. But, of course. For sure. I’m focusing on what’s the problem with men to help them.

Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Because I also, I also have learned from doing my work that, like, Men like to, you know, have their partner initiate with them too, you know, like they don’t want to feel like it’s like, hey, I want to feel wanted to, you know, so, um, finding a way to also make sure signals are clear with that because I’ve had, I’ve had a lot of women and maybe this is because they’re almost like too much in the feminine energy.

I don’t know where they’re like, I wore a low cut shirt. I was like, that’s not the same as initiating sex. So, um, yeah, it could be. Yeah. And then

she feels rejected. Yes. And I’ve literally had

couples come in and then the husband’s like, oh, she never initiates. And then I do a separate session with her and she’s like, I’m always trying to initiate.

I was like, oh my God, do they have any idea they’re literally having like an opposite experience. This is the problem

with male and female communication. We have a book called The Language of Attraction that explains this. A man is very direct in his communication and a woman, or I should say feminine, is more indirect.

A

lot

more indirect. So her mind, she’s like, I am initiating. I’m wearing a low cut dress or, you know, I walked out naked for five seconds to her.

Yeah.

And in his mind, he doesn’t see that as an initiating, he’s like, Oh, I’m trying to focus. We’re very singular focused. That’s another difference. Right. Men are just focused on one thing.

So sometimes, you know, they’re focused on their mission or whatever it is and she’s doing that stuff and he’s like, okay, yeah, whatever, honey. And then she feels totally rejected because she came out with this push up bra and you didn’t even notice. Right. You just focus on the TV or whatever it is.

Hopefully it’s not that bad.

Yeah. Yeah, hopefully it’s not. But sometimes it is, Matt.

Even that. I mean, when you’re watching the game, that’s like single focus. Yeah.

Okay, this is awesome and so helpful and I want to be respectful because I know you have another call after this. So can you tell people, like, and I’m going to get your book, actually.

It sounds great and I would love to learn more about the, the polarities as well. Um. So where can people find you? Where can they get your book? You know, who should reach out?

Yeah, any guys, I mean girls too, but we focus on guys. We do have female followers, um, but guys Yeah, that want to just become the best most attractive version of themselves.

They know, you know, they have some possible baggage or limiting beliefs and you know, they want to ultimately attract the woman of their dreams and we, we, you know, we have a few different products like our book which can be found at theattractiveman. com But our main focus is our coaching because that’s where we get

Cool.

A

real result, you know. Reading a book? Yeah, I can do stuff. Is

it? Yes, for sure. Books have

changed my life, for sure. And a lot of guys write in that our books have changed their lives. But, of course

If they take action. Yeah.

But of course, like, going out there and actually meeting women with a coach is I think it also

sounds so fun, it’s like an adventure.

Definitely an adventure.

Yeah.

Super fun. Like, get

way out of your comfort zone. Go do it, guys. Yeah, we do it with a big group of guys,

so they’re all having a good time, supporting each other. I feel that, too. The kind of guys that come to us are good, honest guys. We don’t get, like, douchebags that are just like, oh, you just want to bang harder girls.

Once in a while we get those, but not too much. Usually good, honest guys, successful guys. That have just like, focused a lot on their career usually, and they just haven’t had this part of their life handled. So it’s like, okay, we’ll just do it. And

you’re like a walking example of what’s possible with it.

So it’s pretty cool.

Appreciate it. So yeah, you can go to theattractiveman. com. Um, you can also follow me on Instagram, Matt Artisan, uh, M A T T A R T I S A N, just like Artisan Bread or Artisan Pizza.

Yeah, we’ll link to it in the show notes, which I don’t know if any of you ever look at the show notes. I hope you do!

We have like meticulous notes. So if you’re an Apple just scroll down from the audio player Spotify I think you have to go back to the menu and go to episode but you’ll see all the links there and they’ll also be on my website heathershannon. co and you can just do forward slash e And then the episode number, so it was episode one, heathershannon.

co forward slash E1. And then you’ll find all the links there as well. So, uh, well, thank you so much for joining me, Matt. This was a really fun conversation. I feel like I learned a few things and I hope that some of the nice guys listening will learn how to be the most attractive version of themselves that they can be.

Yeah. Thanks so much, Heather. It was fun. All right.

Bye guys. If you are loving the show and you don’t want to miss another one, make sure you hit follow at the top of the screen from the show page. And if you’re on an episode page, just go to the little three dot menu, select go to show, and then hit follow at the top of your screen.

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