Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very fun and exciting episode. I have a super fun guest for you, but before we get into that, our topic is going to be bottom shaming. And what does it mean to be a side? Um, so today’s guest is Dr. Joe Court. Uh, he was actually one of my teachers and the sexual health certificate program, University of Michigan.

So very excited. He can join me today. Um, Dr. Joe Court is a psychotherapist, certified sex therapist and clinical director of the Center for Relationship Health in Royal Oak, Michigan. He’s the author of four books and a lecturer and facilitator of therapeutic workshops throughout his 37 years of private practice.

He’s successfully helped hundreds of individuals and couples improve their lives and strengthen their relationships. Dr. Court specializes in marital problems and conflicts. Mixed orientation marriages, male sexuality, and out of control sexual behaviors. His MDR trained and offers LGBTQIA affirmative therapy.

Dr. Kort can be found on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Dr. Joe Kort. Court. And his website is joecourt. com. I love how you just keep it very simple with those, and we’ll link to those in the show notes. Um, so it’s so good to have you. Thank you for being here. And I’m really excited about these topics and your bio even made me think of more things we could talk about.

All right, and it’s good seeing you again after all

you. I know it’s been a little while. So, um, so yeah, so I had reached out to you about Bottom shaming. I don’t even remember at this point why it came up, but I just remember thinking, why is it like any better or worse to be a top or a bottom? And maybe we should even define what those terms mean before we get too far along.

Um, Would you be able to define those for us? What is the top? And what is the bottom?

Yeah, so it’s usually uh words that are used in the gay male community And the top is usually it’s all about intercourse Uh, so, um, the top is the one who gives the bottom is the one who receives Then there are guys that are versatile. They can go either way And then there are top verse where they’re mostly giving but they like to get every once in a while And then there are bottom verse who like to get but every once in a while they’ll like to

And I also hear when someone says, Oh, when they say their verse, you know, they’re really a bottom or something like that. Like people will say things like that. And I think that actually gets into the bottom shaming a little bit.

It gets into the bottom shaming. Absolutely. It is.

that? Why would people be like, Oh, it says he’s verse.

You know what that really means?

It’s um, well, I want us first I would first say that it’s like internalized homophobia. However, it’s more than that. It’s misogynist. It’s sexist Because the idea is that the bottom is the female the receptor in heteronormative language when it’s piv Penis and vagina, right? And so and there’s a terrible joke.

Um that is in the gay male community who pays for the wedding the father of the bottom. And while that sounds funny, it’s really, really not. And, and the other thing is there’s a lot of shaming about the fact that bottoms have to, uh, prep before they have sex and tops don’t necessarily. Yeah. You know, they clean themselves out, give themselves, you know, and there’s controversy around that.

Some doctors say, no, it just depends on how far in the penis goes and where it goes into the rectum. And I really honestly don’t understand all that, but. Yeah, just the idea that I want to feel clean. So you have to eat, right? You have to make sure you’re using the right. Um enemas, you know different things and um, yeah, it’s a whole situation, right?

It’s a lot

I guess there’s yeah multiple layers. So there’s the work of it, which is just labor on some level But then there’s like the shaming of doing the work and of just being in that role And I hear what you’re saying with the misogyny thing I’m also wondering, is it just discomfort with vulnerability?

Because I sometimes think there’s like a vulnerability in like being penetrated versus being the penetrator.

I think there’s vulnerability on both sides I I know what you mean and I used to feel the way you do But a lot of tops talk about the vulnerability of getting an erection keeping an erection making sure they don’t hurt

Yeah, different vulnerabilities. That totally makes sense. Um, and I, and I guess both are challenging in different ways, but then let’s, can we,

but I will say though Well, the vulnerability of HIV is more in the receptor, uh, than the, than the giver. Although the giver is still vulnerable, it’s less

that makes sense. And I feel like before we get too much into this more kind of like binary top bottom stuff, let’s also introduce what is a side. Hmm.

Yeah, so I coined this term in 2013, but I started using it earlier than that, probably 2010. And so what happened was, I am not a top. And I am not a bottom. I never resonated for me. I’ve never tried it. Nobody’s been inside me. I’ve never been inside somebody else. I’ve had a very good sex life. Uh, I’ve had people say to me, well, how do you know?

Um, you know, are you still, you’re still a virgin as a penetration? It’s your only way out of becoming a virginity. Uh, how do you know you don’t like it if you’ve never tried it? Uh, it’s very much what we would say to lesbians, uh, who have never been with men, you know. How do you know if someone may not have done it right?

All kinds of things. I just never have fantasized about it from the moment I was sexual. It wasn’t even on my radar and um, so I decided one day I had a lot of shame And but I was unwilling to go along with anybody that wanted to

Good for

me So one day my yeah, I just was like it’s it’s just it’s not it’d be like asking somebody to do something It’s just not erotic and I wouldn’t even be erotic for me to do it for anybody else so one day my friends were talking about top bottom and Uh, they like would laugh at me when i’d say I had sex because they’d say well, that’s not sex because people think of intercourse as sex.

So I said, I beg to differ. I’m maybe not a top, maybe I’m not a bottom, but maybe I’m a side. Everybody laughed because we were thinking of like a box. And I thought, why is that funny? Why can’t that be the word? So then I. I made it, I made a Huffington Post article, yep, I wrote all about it, and then it made a splash, and then it went away, but I kept using it, using it, and then one day, um, I woke up, oh, I became famous, TikTok famous, uh, and I kept talking about it on there, and I, and I started a Facebook group, we have 7300 gay men all over the world, well, I don’t know if they’re all gay, but they’re all men, and uh, they identify as sides, And woke up one day and Grindr had decided to add it as a preference and gave me

I remember seeing that on your TikTok and I was like, yes, that’s so cool that like you actually impacted the culture. Yeah.

and so much so that Dan Savage reached out to me and said, I’d like to have you on my podcast and gave me kudos for this. He’s like, I’ve tried to get words out there. It was very nice. It felt really

Super affirming. And I mean, I have had a gay male client who basically was a side, and I don’t think we had a word for it when we were talking about it, but he had a lot of discomfort about it too. And he was kind of like, well, I feel like I’m supposed to be one or the other, but I kind of prefer oral sex anyways.

And it was like, yeah, that’s valid. You know? And I, I just, I just think what you’re saying, you know, people are listening, you’re like an expert and you have a following and all the things, but it’s like, in these sexual moments when it’s just you and a partner to like, Be willing to stand up for yourself and to be authentic.

Like, I just think 99 percent of people would have gone along with whatever they felt like they were supposed to

Right? And it was hard. Well, I’ll tell you, because before I met my husband, I dated lots of guys. I used to be, people would make fun of me when I’d go to different groups and they’d say, Who’s the flavor of the month? Because I was out there. And, um, but most of them wouldn’t stay because they wanted to have anal sex.

And I didn’t. And maybe they would have made great partners. I still see them around. We’re friends. But I didn’t, it didn’t matter to me. And Mike was willing to wait and recognize that this is never going to happen. And 30 years later, here we are. We’re both

Oh, he’s a side two?

Well, he might not have been a starting as a side.

I think he would have liked to have had, and maybe did have a little bit of penetration before we met, but it wasn’t a burning issue in getting together with

cool. Aw. I think it’s also just a good reminder because I think a lot of us can feel like, oh, like, we’re into something that’s different. Or if we’re really authentic, you know, people aren’t going to want that. Or we have to kind of compromise what we really want. Um, or how, yeah. And I’m thinking of, like, different kinks.

I’m thinking of, you know, people who are a side, just like anything, you know, monogamy versus non monogamy. Um. You know, and so I think it’s also just a good reminder that, like, you can still find. A partner, or partners, regardless of what you’re into and who you

Right. And people are so funny. They’re like, well, how can you not have sex? I’m like, I have lots of sex. Well, then what do you do? Well, have you ever heard of oral sex? We call it oral sex because it’s sex. So people only think about PIV or PIA, right? And intercourse is the only way. And I’m like, you do other things, don’t you?

Do you only have PIV or do you? Oh no, I do all kinds of other things, but that’s foreplay. Foreplay is sex. So I’m constantly teaching.

I totally hear you on that, and I think that’s even like a broader topic that’s important to discuss too. Because then also, what happens when there’s two women? They just aren’t having sex. Like, what are we even saying? We’re just kind of saying all pairs of two women having sex are invalid. You know? And there, I don’t know.

And, um, no, well, people don’t think about outercourse and they don’t even know the word, right? Outercourse is, um, just, is everything but intercourse. And people don’t, can’t wrap their head

And so, and, and also so many ways to have an orgasm, you know? So I, and people define sex differently. I saw a post on Instagram that was like, cuddling is sex. I’m like, I would not say that. I would not say cuddling is sex. But I would say.

But, but lesbians would say yes. Oh yeah, lesbians would say cuddling, a warm bath together, just kind of touching each other’s bodies. They would call that

I would say that’s

so would I, because I,

But I would, I guess.

yeah,

Yeah, like I would say that’s definitely intimate, but I would say sex means like an orgasm could happen maybe, but maybe not. I don’t

Well, well, so, so, so that’s a really important thing about, do we need to have an orgasm to call it sex? Because in the kink and fetish community, sometimes genitals aren’t exposed or even rubbed or touched. Sometimes there’s no, oftentimes there’s no orgasm and they’re still having kinky sex,

This is a really interesting point to discuss because And some of it might be semantics, because I would say that’s all sexual energy. Like, you’re playing with sexual energy. So then is that the definition of sex? Like, anytime you’re playing with sexual energy.

I would say. So I, I was talking to my trainer on Sunday and we were talking about his sexting

Oh, how

And I say, yes, absolutely. What? Well, how could it not

awesome!

You’re talking sexually with

listening is like, Oh my God, I’ve had so many more sexual partners than I ever realized.

Exactly.

But I think it does. It’s like when you really start to dissect these things, it’s like all of these ways in which we’ve identified and defined things sort of fly out the window a little bit. And then you’re like, well, then wait, now I’ve had, you know, a hundred partners instead of 10. And does that, does that mean I’m like very slutty?

I’m like, what does this mean about me? You know, but I think it’s good to ask

great questions.

Yeah. Um, so very cool about the side thing, and I mean, another thing that you talk a lot about on your TikTok, um, and you might be sick of talking about this, so just let me know, is, you know, straight men having sex with men.

Oh, I never

great.

that. Never.

But you get so much crap from people on this particular topic. We’re like, well, then they’re not straight, you know? And so like, there’s, you know, there’s a lot of reasons why we have sex. And that’s something that like, I’ve learned the more that, um, you know, I do this work too. It’s like, there’s a lot of motivations for sex.

So how do you explain this phenomenon? Because people are probably like, what?

I know Well, and I have a whole book on it and you can google me Joe Kord straight men who have sex with men It’s all over the place. But people want to focus on this little 60 second video I did and I have a whole playlist of Uh, hundreds of 60 second videos you can watch about all the reasons and people and here’s the thing.

Let me just say this You know you when as if you’re a social media person and you want to get your business out there and your brand You hope to go viral. I mean a lot of us want to go viral. I always wanted to go viral So I did that video my very first video went viral Um, and it was december of 2020 during covid and what I said was When a straight man has one non heterosexual thought, he’s stigmatized.

When a woman has one non heterosexual thought, she’s

Yeah.

Both are problematic. And so that went viral. People, all right, so that was fine. It was a little weird, but it was like, just weird in that you get all these comments, you get all this hate, you get, but then, um, I did a bunch of videos and then one really went viral.

Like this, the first one went million. This was like, Three million now and it is a ride because you collect all kinds of people’s

Yeah.

negative transference unfinished traumas and looking at me like And so it was really terrible people would say i’m going to go after your license People said i’m going to meet you after work.

You better watch your

me?

I it was you you’re still time to take it down Uh, what kind of a doctor are you a real doctor? And this was the worst thing I was blocking left and right You If you want to disagree with me, I will disagree with you until we both get exhausted. But once you come after me, yeah, you come after me, it’s over.

So, um, what, what I did was, uh, oh, so the worst one though. So my line in this viral video is, did you know that you can be a straight man and have sex with men and still be straight? You can. That’s what I say. And so then, people that had been sexually abused by male perpetrators, men, that’s the line that a perpetrator would use to get a boy to be sexual with them.

I know that as a therapist, but it wasn’t even on my mind for that video because I wasn’t even thinking about it. So then they came after me. What, and then what people do is they think they’re only thinking of men with men so it’s all anal sex. Well, a lot of it’s anal sex, but it’s not only anal sex. So then people You know what I mean?

Like, and so people don’t understand. And I talked about two chapters. I have this book called, it’s called, is my husband gay straight or bi? And I have two chapters in the, and then I talk about trauma, trauma reenactment.

Yes. I remember you talking about

a male perpetrator

Mm

your class, I’ve been talking about it forever.

You will reenact that trauma with men and you’re not having sexual urges. You’re having trauma urges. And it’s eroticized. It’s different. And that, people understand that. But if I do any other videos about pleasure, the man is seeking other men for pleasure, they’re like, their minds

That’s true. And I think, I think you also mentioned the kind of trauma play versus like kink play maybe too. So like in the, in that realm of kink as well, like where sometimes you’re reenacting trauma and sometimes it’s healed and it’s just enjoyable at that point. Mm hmm. Can we get into that for a

Yeah, it becomes something you learn

Yeah. So like, what’s, how do you know, like, how do you know for yourself, because this comes up a decent amount with, you know, my audience or clients? Like, how do you know if like a kink is healthy for you or not?

yeah. So I always want people to know while we’re talking about this, I’m glad you brought it up, that kink is not a diagnosis. Um, and that kink is not about trauma any more or any less than being non kinky is about trauma Everything in our erotic lives is part of our uh can become part of our erotic Become from our childhoods come from our past, right?

And so I call it trauma reenactment versus trauma play in other words Somebody is reenacting something because it’s unhealed and so they break an agreement with a partner It’s compulsive and they put themselves at risk. They don’t know their limits You Trauma play is, I’ve healed all that, but I still get off on this.

So now I negotiate with a partner, we have an agreement around this, I’m not compulsive, I’m totally at choice, and the last thing is I don’t put myself at risk. I know what I’m doing, and I know my boundaries.

That’s actually a really good point. I think sometimes people don’t know, maybe, which one it is until they get triggered. And maybe, I mean, do you think that’s a sign, like if someone’s getting emotionally triggered, that’s a sign it might be the trauma reenactment?

I mean, I think it just depends on the person, because you can still get triggered even when you’ve done healing, you know, it can sneak up on you kind of thing, you know? Yeah. Uh, but I don’t, I think that people think if I’m still enjoying what happened to me as a kid and now I’m acting it out as an adult, something’s wrong with me, and therapists think the same thing, and it, that’s not necessarily the case at all.

So how can someone know then, like, what would be maybe some signs to look for that, like, okay, like, I can actually just allow myself to enjoy this in a healthy way.

Um, well, that’s not compulsive. I’m, uh, making agreement with my partner, so I’m above board about it, and, um, I am at choice, right? When I do it, when I don’t do it, and I’m not putting myself at risk. And, um, the thing is that people will feel a lot of shame. You’ve probably had this in your office, where they’re like, I don’t want this to be my fantasy.

Give me an eroticectomy. Right? Yeah. There’s no such thing as an eroticectomy. I’m not going to be able to do that. But the get rid of the shame is when it happened to you as a kid, it was non consensual and it was done sexually But it wasn’t about sex. It was about control, betrayal, violation, all that stuff.

Non consent. Now, it’s yours. You get to play with it. It is sexual. It’s your consent and you get, you don’t have to engage in it. But if you want to, it’s yours to play with.

thing I think too is like kind of making like a sober decision about it. And so I think like what you’re saying is like with the agreement with a partner at a time, or even an agreement with yourself, like, what are my boundaries? What am I comfortable with? Like making that decision before you’re sexually aroused, when you’re kind of more in that sober mindset.

I mean, I realize I’m not saying alcohol or drugs, although that’s good too. Don’t, don’t make the decision when you’re also intoxicated. Um, But I think just the, the chemicals that happen in our brain, when we get really turned on, sometimes we would do things that we wouldn’t kind of be okay with when we’re, you know, in our normal state,

always say this. I hope I can say this on your podcast. You can’t eat a hamburger and a, and a good meal and eat ass at the same time, unless that’s your fetish, right? Cause eating ass is you’re in a whole different zone. You’re not going to have a burger King Whopper at the same time.

Right, so that’s like, there’s 2 different modes, basically. So be aware, be aware of what mode you’re in. Um, I think that’s important. So, okay, so I wanted to get back to the bottom shame. Um. Where do you think that comes from? So you’re saying there’s some kind of like maybe patriarchal tones to that?

Um,

heteronormativity is what a lot of people say it is, that one has to be the man, one has to be the woman. Even though we’ve done all this activism work, all this work to get away from it, it still lingers in our community, particularly around intercourse,

I mean, cause to me it almost seems like, cause I mean, like in heterosexual sex, that’s penetrative. It doesn’t seem like the woman feels shameful that she’s being penetrated.

right? And maybe people see that as natural, where it’s not natural for two men. I don’t know.

I know. I think that’s the part that I’m kind of curious about. Like why? Is it actually less present, being the bottom, when it’s a man and a woman, but more present when it’s two men? I don’t know. I’m wondering if there’s like

It has to be something around. Yeah, like masculinity because lesbians don’t have bottom

Oh, they don’t? Okay, so that’s interesting. You’re right. Yeah, they

far as I know it. Nope. Mm hmm.

Well, if anyone listening has any theories, reach, reach out to me and let me know, or reach out to Dr. Court. Like I’m, I’m super curious if people have theories about that. But yeah, I do kind of wonder if there’s almost an element of being like emasculated. It’s almost like, okay, we’ve got two, maybe more masculine energies, even though there’s an agreement that one will be the top and one will be the bottom.

Maybe

right and you could be a power bottom Even the power bottom doesn’t get a lot of credit

Yeah,

the whole intercourse act while the top just relaxes And lays back and lets

it almost seems like a dominance thing, but like, not in the fun way.

What do you

I mean, like, if someone’s agreeing, like, I’m going to be the dom and you’re going to be the sub, they’re like having fun with it, kind of. But it almost seems like when somebody’s the top and somebody’s the bottom and it’s not necessarily a kink thing or a power exchange, like, it still winds up being a power exchange where, like, one is more alpha and masculine and one is not as valid. Does that make sense?

I mean, I see what you’re saying, but I don’t know that gay men would say that. I think they would say they’re just enjoying it and it isn’t power balance, uh, back and forth. The bottom shaming isn’t so much in relationship as much as it’s cultural. You know, it’s sort of like, oh, you’re the bottom.

So it’d be more like a group of guys

then there’s this, uh,

would make fun of someone who’s a bottom versus like a

oh yeah,

That are partners.

yeah, you would see it more there, and then there’s this, like, myth that there are more bottoms than tops, and, um, I’ve actually read some research that says that, but a lot of people in the research community say that’s not, we don’t know that to be true. That there’s that, that there’s

Because it also seems like everyone wants to be more submissive and there’s like a scarcity of people who want to be dominant. Wonder if that’s related.

That’s what I see, but some people say that’s not in the research, I don’t know.

Interesting. Uh, well, so what, what is sort of the main message that you want to get out there to people? Like when you work with clients, when you hear from people, you know, in your comments on TikTok, like what do you feel like people really need to know?

Okay. Yeah.

especially around straight men who have sex with men. I, I talk about it on purpose. One, they don’t have a community, obviously. Uh, straight men can’t come out about this because they’re seen as no longer straight. And, um, And they do have, and I like to talk about it for all kinds of reasons. One, to give them a name.

Two, you know, to give them a, uh, to help put it out in the culture this happens. But three, talk about ways that we can be sexual that are unexpected, like you just thought. You know, you, for you, cuddling might be intimacy, but not sex. But for a guy cuddling with another guy, Um, I get guys that are, um, so here are some other reasons.

Let me just say this, that people don’t think about like, um, there are guys that enjoy anal sex because they like prostate play and they might want it with their girlfriends or female partners, but the female partners either don’t want to do it, shame them or they’re too ashamed to ask. So they go to a man, and it’s not like a gay or bi guy.

The gay or bi guy is like, oh my god, this hot guy is fucking me. That’s not the way a straight guy gets fucked. He’s like, oh my god, I’m getting fucked. I like feeling submissive. I like the feeling this guy is giving me. But I’m not into the guy. And that’s the biggest difference that people don’t understand.

Is that straight men are not into the guy. They’re into the sex act. That’s the difference.

I think that’s the case with a lot of kink, too. I mean, like when I’ve spoken with people in the kink community. Um, sometimes they’re really not very concerned who the partner is. They’re much more interested in, hey, this is what turns me on. This act is what turns me on. Who will do this with me?

And so I think it’s the same idea.

right. So, I’m, yep, I’m teaching kink to people and helping them understand, but people don’t understand kink. They don’t think that kink is sex. They think that if he’s, uh, there are men that are voyeurs. They like to watch. And if they can’t find women, they’ll watch men. They’re exhibitionists. They like to be worshipped.

If women are around, they’ll let men worship them. There’s a whole cuckolding fantasy. That’s huge! Where the guy likes to be humiliated and he’s in service of this male female couple and he’s, you know, Getting them hard and aroused and cleaning them. And if the woman leaves the scene, these two men are left cold.

There’s no exchange between these men. It’s all about the woman. Or there are men that enjoy being paid for sex. Money is the turn on. I’ve had clients call themselves cash sexuals, right? That’s going to be a new term, LGBT C, you know, cash sexual.

a good

they’d rather women pay them. But if women aren’t around, they’ll let men pay them.

And then they’re able to have sex with these men based on the money that

yeah. And I think, I think partly because I’ve, I’ve known people in these different situations, it does make sense to me. Like, I’m thinking of someone else I knew who, um, was demisexual, um, and switchy, somewhat submissive, but into women, but would go kind of do submissive things for gay men because I think he liked the attention.

He liked feeling like a sexual object. He liked feeling, um, desired in, you know, a certain way. And so like, even though, you know, it wasn’t about the sexual attraction, there was still something there in the exchange.

Yes, and then let me say this. There’s a four questions that I ask because people say how do you know whether a guy’s gay straight or bi if they come to you,

Yeah.

I say I’m not a gay whisperer. If I was a gay whisperer, I would be so rich that I wouldn’t be here with you No offense. I would be on my my yacht with Cher and Dinah Ross and enjoying my caviar Right.

It does sound great, but I’m not. So I never tell anybody who they are. I have these four questions and I came up with them over the years of working with these men. The first one is I call it, do you have any youthful noticing? In other words, in your childhood, do you have memories of being attracted to males?

When I was a little boy, we were, it was the seventies. So you had to shower and before you went into a school pool. And, um, I remember all of us getting naked and looking at all these other boys, we were eight years old and thinking. I didn’t know why, that I was aroused. I didn’t know what was happening.

But I remember it like yesterday. All the colors, all the shapes, all the sizes. I was so aroused. In gym every day after school, we had to shower, and people don’t do this today, but back then you had to shower every single day after gym. And it was torture because I was so turned on. And then I fell in love with Billy Ramnick, right?

But I had to, my first kiss was with Laurie Bingham. Loved her to death. But she wasn’t my object of passion. Billy was. Straight men who have sex with men have none of that. It’s all women. All of it. They may have had like a circle jerk or some kind of

Sure. Yeah.

But it wasn’t the same thing as if a gay or bi guy has one and they’re looking forward to the next circle jerk.

That’s not a straight

That makes sense.

The second thing is, Yeah, the second thing is, they don’t have any homophobia. None. They’ll read my book and they’ll come in and they’ll say, Joe, if I’m gay, help me be gay. Because I’ve read everything you’ve, they actually read my stuff better than any gay or bi guy ever reads my stuff.

And I, and, but the gay or bi guys are so riddled with internalized homophobia and biphobia, they don’t even make it to my office. I’m too gay for them.

that’s so interesting.

that’s the second indicator. And third indicator, I call it the Beach Test. When you’re on the beach, what are you drawn to? No offense to you or any women, but when I’m on the beach, you’re in my way.

I’m looking at the men. I’m looking at your husband. I’m looking at your adult son. I’m not looking at. So, you know, right? So the straight men will say, nope, I’m looking at the women. I’m not, the men are in my way. And the fourth thing is. Who do you want to come home to? Who do you want to wake up next to?

Gay and bi men always say men, some, some bi men say women as well. And then straight men always say women. Now that’s not foolproof. You know, some men lie, right? And then later they’ll tell me, Oh my God, I lied to you. I was lying to myself, but for the most part, it’s a great way of helping men understand their

And I, I mean, and I did an episode on this, uh, on male bisexuality, but that’s something I run into too, where I think there’s a lot of, uh, I think there’s actually a lot of women who judge that and like, don’t believe it’s real. Like if they’re with, with a boyfriend or a husband who’s bisexual, um, do you have any suggestions for those people?

Or would you say kind of the same suggestion, suggested questions to ask?

I don’t know how to help somebody who is gay or who is bi other than sort of the typical questions of asking them You know, but I will tell you this. I know what you’re saying I used to say exactly what you just said that there are a few there are fewer women that will be receptive to a bisexual partner But that’s changing when I do anything on social media There’s they’re now saying women are saying a lot of them I would rather have a bi man than a straight

Oh, interesting.

find that fascinating.

I mean, I feel somewhat that way personally. Um, you know, that’s

Yeah. So why, why, why do you feel that way?

have I thought about this? One, you could have two guys, which is kind of like a nice option to have. I feel like that’s why a lot of, you know, straight men have been into bisexual women. Um, I think there’s maybe something appealing of someone having to go through a figuring out process with themselves.

Um, like they would be a little bit more conscious or a little bit more sort of evolved with who they are as a sexual being. Yeah, that, I think that would be really appealing. Um, I don’t know, I guess, I would guess that there’s sort of an open mindedness. Um, yeah.

Yeah. And that’s what a lot of women will say. In addition to that, when I’ve done TikToks about it, they’ll say, uh, they like the softer, it’s softer, it’s less patriarchal than the men. Um, and there’s, they have more security. The younger women feel more secure with the bisexuals. Plus a lot of them are bisexual.

So they’re there and they’re coming out. They’re more self aware

That makes sense. Yeah, I think, um, I still, I’m still pretty attracted to masculine, pretty masculine guys. So I don’t know that that part would make sense for me, but I want like a sensitive guy. So I like, I like that. I like that combo. Um, But yeah, it’s interesting to think about that. It’s like, you know, the more we’re talking about all these things, it’s like there is so much nuance and so many things to be curious about and so many things to kind of explore about sexuality.

Um, and I know a lot of people are maybe, you know, afraid to do that or afraid to be honest with partners. I’m actually curious, have you seen the couple on Tik Tok, uh, where It’s a gay guy with a girlfriend, like,

I do, I know that couple,

and I like their content, like, what are your thoughts on that?

I, I actually did a video and tagged them and said, I’m so proud of them for putting a face to a mixed orientation couple because there’s so much shame. Most of the couples that I work with that are one, usually the guy is gay and the wife is straight, they have to be closeted if they stay together because people around them have an infidelity response.

Therapists. have this horrible bias, you must leave, straight spouse get on with your life, gay spouse get on with your life, and I’ve, I’m successful with these couples and want and desired because I don’t have an agenda for them. This is their relationship, how they want to make it work, and it’s sort of like when Esther Perel says, The old shame when someone had an affair was to get a divorce.

The new shame is staying after there’s an affair.

that’s true,

It’s the same thing here, even if he’s never acted on it. Just because he’s a different orientation, people shame the wife and shame him for staying and doing this to her. When that’s not usually the case with these

right. And I love seeing that too. I just love there being public examples for people of like, here’s a way to do a relationship. Here’s the way to do it. Here’s one you haven’t thought of. Oh, here’s another one. And it could be anything from, you know, we live in separate apartments, but we’re married, you know, to, you know, a gay guy with a straight woman.

And I know the, the couple on TikTok, I’ll have to link to their account too, now that we’re talking about them so much. But, um, yeah. I mean, they are intimate with each other, you know, I’m sure there’s, there’s some that maybe aren’t.

a lot of the, yeah, no, a lot of the ones that I see are having very active, pleasurable sex lives. In fact, there’s something on the internet, they’re calling it now Gay Plus One. I’m gay, I’m only attracted to men, but I’m in love with my wife, and I love her body, and I like being sexual with her, but it’s not bisexuality because I’m not attracted to other women.

And I’m even thinking of, um, you know, Glennon Doyle, where she tried to make a marriage with a man work for many, many years, and then met Abby Wambach and was kind of like, Oh, I think I’m just into Abby. And I, you know, I think she almost identifies as lesbian as a default, but she’s like, really, it’s just one person.

Just period.

Oh, I don’t even know

She’s a huge podcast and Abby Wambach was like a well known soccer star and Glennon Doyle has written a couple like best selling books like Untamed is the one that I think kind of took off a couple years ago. Yeah, yeah. So she wrote Untamed. But yeah, so I think she kind of had that example or even think of like, uh, Chris Schell from Selling Sunset who had always dated men and then met a non binary person who was assigned female at birth and now is like married to them.

Um,

you see all these female examples, but today, did you see, well, actually it was yesterday that Wayne Brady has come out as pansexual, which is awesome.

Is he, is he? No, I didn’t, I didn’t know that. Um, yeah, he was the host of that, like, funny show, right? Am I

Uh, well, uh, whose line is it anyways? He was one of the comics on there, and then he hosts Let’s Make a Deal, he’s funny, he’s sexy,

great. I could totally see him

uh, he did a, he’s a,

works for him. Yeah.

I know, everyone can, I, I, I can too, but to have a face, and have a, a, a, um, a male face, and a, a man of color, I mean, it’s just like, let’s do this, let’s get this out

I love that too. And it’s, it’s, it’s so like brave, you know, of people to put stuff out there so openly. And I mean, and you do too. And I think it’s brave. And I also think it’s, um, even challenging some of the norms of being a therapist and like being a sex therapist, because Even when I was, you know, coming through school, it’s kind of like, you’re a blank slate.

You’re, don’t tell the, don’t tell anyone anything about yourself. Your clients should know nothing about you. Like, you’re just like,

even when you were in school i’m surprised that you how old are you? Oh, i’m really surprised that that’s still being taught today. It’s crazy to

know, I mean, like, I’ve been out of school for a while now, but like, but yes, when I came up, I was very much like, don’t be a full human. And I mean, in part, so I practice as a coach now, I don’t even practice as a therapist anymore, because I’m kind of like, uncomfortable with some of the like, rules or culture around stuff.

Um, and the coaching makes me feel like I can be a human more, which is, which is just nice in general. Um, and so now I have packages where like clients actually get access to me between sessions. That’s encouraged, you know, and we have more, more checking in and stuff like that. But, um, but yeah, I think that, uh, I don’t know.

So I applaud you, I guess, for, for being a therapist and being a human and doing it publicly.

you know even on tiktok On tiktok i’ll do i’ve done it a lot actually because i’ve been feeling better and better about my body as i’ve gotten older And I work out and everything so i’ll take my shirt off and do videos about Not letting go of shame and i’m really hairy and i’m not I’ll have therapists say, yeah, this is inappropriate, um, yeah, you know, I’m not naked, what if I was out there in my bathing suit and I wasn’t wearing a shirt, like, like, come on, get over yourself.

We’re human beings, and if somebody sees it and has some kind of transference toward me, we’ll deal with it in therapy. If they don’t want me to be their therapist, because of it, they won’t

Or they

me. I’m taking that risk.

TikTok.

Right, they can unfollow me, exactly, or block me, right.

But, you know, that’s something that like, when I’ve had consultation with other therapists, I’ve talked about that too, about like, you know, what if I go to like a kink dungeon or what if I run into someone or what, you know, and it’s like, there’s all of these, you know, fears sometimes I think of like being a full human, um, you know, and I feel like I’m, I’m working my way past some of those, but, you know, I feel like you’ve really gotten past it.

And, and I do feel like, unfortunately. The therapist community or culture can be kind of judgy, even though our whole job

Horribly judgy. Oh my god. Oh my god.

it’s like our whole job is not to judge people. So we just judge each other instead.

know. I know.

This is so silly, but, but I get it. It’s like, we’ve all been kind of indoctrinated a certain way, or we sometimes feel like, well, this is the proper way to do it, you know, and it’s like, what if there’s infinite ways to do it? And the right people who you’re going to be able to help with your way will find you, you know.

So that’s my two cents on that. But, um, we, I, so I think, I think we need more people to be therapists and be human. And I think we need to not put our therapist on too much of a pedestal, you know, myself included, you know, it’s like, I don’t have everything figured out, you know, like, hopefully you guys listening, know that by now, but like, you know, it’s like, we have some things figured out and we do have some expertise and kind of this idea that like, you can be both and like, you don’t have to be

I’m a humanistic. No, right. I’m a humanistic therapist. I don’t tell my clients my problems, but I will say, you know, Mike and I went through this many years ago, and here’s how we resolved it. But if Mike and I are in the middle of a fight, I mean, thank God we don’t fight so much anymore. It’s been 30 years.

But when we, when we did, I would never say, Oh my God, Mike and I are fighting and I’m

well, yeah, that’s

never tell that to a client, you know?

right. It’s not about you,

but people might say it’s inappropriate to share anything, you know When I started as a gay therapist people said it was um It was in the 90s that it was inappropriate that I came out that my client shouldn’t even know my sexuality and I was like Go fuck yourself.

I’m gay. This is my sexuality. I’m it’s I built a career around it

Yeah, so there’s something to be said I think for you know Authenticity and putting yourself out there and it’s really kind of like modeling vulnerability and modeling overcoming shame and modeling body acceptance and all of that so

and honesty. Yep

Yeah, it’s not, I don’t know, it’s not easy to do, so, um, Anyways, is there, is there anything else before we wrap up that you feel like, you know, you want to kind of leave people with that maybe we didn’t get to?

Um, no, I think we covered pretty much everything. I just feel like like what you said. It’s all about communication. It’s all about um, You know couples often fight over contracts. They’ve never made Because they’re not communicating with one

quotable one

and that’s a really important thing to remember. Yeah, isn’t that?

I didn’t make that up That was Marty Klein.

great. He was the first book that I ever read before I became a sex therapist. I read his sexual intelligence book. Yeah, which I also

Yeah, he’s very smart.

sure. Um, well, thank you so much for being here. And can you tell people, you know, if they want to know more about you, or, you know, follow you, or work with you, like, how can they, how can they find you?

Yep I’m on all social media platforms and it’s like you said in the beginning at dr Joe court dr Jo e k o r t and then they can go to Joe court comm because I have a podcast to smart sex smart love and they Can go on my website and find that in my books and you know It’s really, if you Google Joe court,

You’ll find him. He’s pretty easy to find you guys.

Well, I am, I don’t, I’m not

thank you so much for being here. This has been a pleasure and, um, we’ll let you know when it comes out. And thanks everyone for listening.

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