This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body, because it’s time for you to Ask a Sex Therapist. Hey everybody, I am back and I have a very fun and intelligent guest with me today.

Um, we’re going to talk to you about boundaries and we’re going to talk to you in like a really Specific and also Broadway about how you can implement them in many different areas of your life and your relationships. So before we get too much into it, I’m going to introduce our guest. So our guest is also named Heather, but her friends call her Nookie.

She’s an entrepreneur, a lover of life, a partner to the most amazing man she’s ever met. An avid reader, a hiker, a cancer pre previvor, a traveler, a cook, and more. She has ADHD and she’s an author, educator, and coach. Her business is called Curiouser, which I love because I identify as being very curious as well.

Um, and it was born out of her personal journey and the idea that more joy, love, and success comes with a sense of curiosity about the world and a desire to know more about life and the people we encounter in it. So with that, um, welcome. I’m going to call you Nookie. Is that cool? Absolutely. Welcome Nookie.

We’re so happy to have you here. Hey, so Nookie has written a book. Is this your first book or is this like book number whatever?

This is book number whatever. I lost count a long time ago. This one though is different. This is my first book in a very, very long time. Decades that I’m actually focusing in on also creating a print version and the print version is going to be interactive with like QR codes and stuff to take you to additional information.

Love that. I’m having, this was a passion project for me, so I’m having a lot of fun with this.

That’s so cool because I know you’ve been working on it for a while and I know that you’ve been like, a pretty prolific writer in general for like decades, I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that’s pretty badass. I also want to add, uh, Nikki is a kink expert and educator as well.

So we’re going to kind of talk about the intersection of the boundary work and also what does that look like applying it in the kink community or just your sex life in general. So with this being a passion project for you, like what made you realize like now is the time like for this to come into fruition?

So, last year, I got diagnosed with a BRCA1 genetic mutation that said I had an 87 percent lifetime chance of breast cancer, and I started looking at the prevention options, and I was making some really big decisions about my body and my health, and last year I also turned 49. I’d never had any health issues before.

I’d always been effortlessly, I guess healthy. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, and my birthday month is August. So last year I decided I was going to take my birthday month. I’d had a crazy year and I was making these decisions and going to take my birthday month that I was going to do a sabbatical. I was going to stop blogging every day.

I was going to, you know, just. Rest and figure out what would I do if I could focus in on my passion. And I’d been sort of talking about writing a boundaries book for a while. I’d done some blogs on the topic. I’d talked to people. I’d interviewed some people. I’d written kind of an outline. I wrote it in the way that a lot of people write books, which is to say I didn’t actually write it.

And um, my first week of my sabbatical, I decided I was going to work on that. And so in order to make myself do it, I put up a community and I invited people to join my community and watch me write it live and give feedback on it. So that’s what I did for about three and a half months as I wrote it live.

I wrote 60, 70 chapters. I

thought I’d ask more about this writing it live thing. So, so if I was like in the audience while you’re writing this live, would you be doing like a screen share of your Google Doc or something? I’m literally seeing

the words appear. I did try that, and the talking to people and typing was not working.

So, what I did instead is every time I wrote a new chapter, I posted it all and I also read it so they could listen to it and then they had forums and stuff where they could ask questions and talk about what seemed clear and what didn’t seem clear and whatever. And then I decided to edit it and I completely changed the format entirely.

I took a bunch of stuff out because I realized I was writing More of like, a textbook on boundaries instead of something somebody might actually want to read. And uh, I decided that a lot of that was gonna go into kind of the also parts. The parts that I’m making interactive in the book. And I started a, a workshop on, so the book is like, here are boundaries.

And then the workshop is kind of like, buckle up bitches, we’re setting boundaries. Okay. So

there’s a workshop component to it. Yeah.

Yeah. For those people who need a little bit more handholding or a little bit more like step by step, here’s how you set a boundary and here’s, you know, how to troubleshoot and everything like that.

And then I got asked a bazillion times to offer one on one coaching, which I then started doing. And so now I am finishing the editing and illustration of my book. Are you illustrating

it also yourself?

Well, it’s, yes, and, so, I’m illustrating it with like, crazy, like, fun, like, both clip art and hand drawn stuff, so it’s kind of like, the idea is that boundaries is a really heavy topic.

It can be. Super, super heavy. It can touch on trauma and like, relationship issues and so on and so forth. And I just, I really wanted something that people would actually enjoy, like, reading. And I read like I talk, so there’s a lot of LOLs and smiles and like, silliness in there. You know, like, when I talk about You know, I’m draw the line at, you know, hedgehog racing or whatever it is.

Like I, you know, but if I’m gonna say something like I draw the line at hedgehog racing, then I feel like there should be a hedgehog on that page.

Okay. Yeah, I like that. So it’s kind of like cute and fun, you know? And maybe this is like why I feel like we get along pretty well. I’m kind of like that too.

’cause I feel like sex and especially sexual trauma and you know, things like that can be heavy. And I do think we need to be able to like. Take it seriously, you know, like educate people really well, but like bring some fun and playfulness and lightness to it as well.

I think we can take the topic seriously without being serious.

Yes. Totally agree.

Yeah.

Kind

of like

a novel concept sometimes.

I know. I know. It’s so crazy. So you mentioned that there’s a cluster of different areas that people can set boundaries in. Yeah. So can you kind of, you know, walk us through, you know, what are those areas and kind of what a little bit at least of like what falls within that area.

Oh, sure, sure, sure. I like to say that there are six types of boundaries, right? Let’s be clear on what a boundary is because I think a lot of people get the idea of a boundary wrong because a lot of people think a boundary is stop, do not pass, you know. To me, a boundary is more than that. A boundary is the dividing line between Your personal power and the rest of the world.

It is what Separates this is what I do not want or what I want less of from this Everything inside the boundary is what I want or want more of. Okay,

this is a different framework for me, too I like it. Yeah. Yeah, so the idea is

that if you have healthy boundaries You’re not just going around saying no to everything.

You’re also prioritizing the things you want to say yes to. Love that. And by saying no to all of these other things, you’re reserving your personal power for the things that you want to say yes to.

I like that too.

So that’s really important to understand. If you, if you think about like What is a state boundary, right?

Like it’s a state line that includes all the good in the state and that includes all the negative in the state. The food, the language, the, you know, like festivals, the mountains, the beach, whatever. And it also separates it from the neighboring state, right? So you know, you, you, you’re crossing. It’s the same type of thing with humans, right?

Another way that I define boundary is, um, actually a friend, not a friend, uh, um, one of the interviews I did. When I was asking people about boundaries, I like to do interviews with people and share, you know, their experiences. One of them said their therapist called boundaries a shit shield. And I’ll be honest, I had to illustrate that.

And it is an otter dressed up in Victorian dress, carrying an umbrella with little poops falling down on it. So, okay. So anyway, so boundaries are not just stop signs. Let’s just, let’s just throw that out there and move along. Let’s say, um, somebody says something that makes you uncomfortable

and you

kind of laugh it off and later.

You realize that you wish you’d spoken up, right? That’s an emotional boundary. Okay, you share an idea with like a co worker and a few days later your boss is presenting that idea as their own and you realize that that co worker must have told them and maybe you kick yourself for not being clearer about, you know, your wishes or making a better record of your work.

That is an intellectual boundary. Other intellectual boundaries might be, um, whether or not you’re willing to actually discuss and debate your religion, or your political beliefs, right? Like, those are intellectual boundaries. You’re on a date, and they walk you to the door, and so, you’re happy to lead in for a kiss, but when they grope you, you freeze.

And just let it happen. They didn’t even notice. And they’re happy when they finally say goodnight. They have crossed one of your sexual boundaries. Other sexual boundaries might be who and what you’re attracted to. What turns you on? Not just how far and how fast are you willing to go, but, like, are there words you’re not willing to hear during sex or words that you really like to hear during sex?

Okay, so I think we got the sexual boundary. So, what would be a physical boundary that’s not sexual?

So, a physical boundary is, um, Maybe you absolutely adore your new friends, but they hug, like, a lot. Okay. And you’re not really into touch, and you panic each time they go for you. Right? Okay. Or, and I think most people have experienced this, you’re standing in a grocery store and the aisle is completely empty except for one other person who’s breathing down your neck.

That discomfort, that’s a physical boundary.

Yeah, I’m even thinking of different cultures and how, like, each culture has a different kind of, you know, field around you in terms of, like, what personal space is considered normal or acceptable.

So, like, for example, people in New York City, when they’re out in public, their physical space needs are very small because it’s incredibly crowded.

However, their physical space needs in private tend to be larger because they’re making up for Like that being all sardined up in like, you know, the metro or whatever. These are the types of things that everybody’s going to have different. So being able to understand what yours are and how you can like maintain them is important.

So what about. So, Loaning money to like a family member, and then they ask you for another loan before paying the first one back. Maybe you give it to them, but you’re upset about it. You’ve just found out you have a material boundary. Material boundaries are stuff, money, things. Where you live. How you maintain your stuff, how clean you keep things, whether or not you are willing to allow somebody to like, you know, take food out of your refrigerator when they’re hanging out at your place.

Like, this is material stuff.

Okay. I’m loving how comprehensive this is. This is great. Okay, and then time is the last category, right?

Time boundaries. So, um, you have, like, this important project coming up on Friday and it’s Thursday and your child’s game is tonight and you’re working overtime, so you’re gonna regret it, right?

That’s a time boundary. Another one might be, I’m sorry, I can’t go out this evening. I’ve had a crazy week and I need some alone time with my cat, right? Like, setting that personal space boundary.

And I just had a friend set that one with me, where like, we were talking about doing something this weekend.

She was like, you know, I don’t have a lot going on, but I kind of need to just sit and like, vegetate and watch TV with like, my dog and do nothing. And for me, I was like, I totally respect that. And I appreciate when someone is honest and just. tells me their actual boundary.

That is the ideal. Like, to be able to say thank you for speaking up for yourself.

Right.

Because I talk about boundaries and ethics being two sides of the same coin. So when somebody sets a boundary with me I want to validate, support and honor that boundary because what happens is we’re not taught a lot about boundaries, right? So people are constantly stomping our boundaries and we learn that when somebody says, Oh, I don’t want to go out this weekend.

We’re supposed to say, Oh, come on. What are you, why are you going to be such a party pooper? Right? There is so much of that. Yeah. And so when we start focusing on how we treat other people’s boundaries, we get more sensitive to our own. And when we start focusing on our own boundaries, we start seeing them more in others.

So it’s give and take, boundaries and ethics. How do we allow people to treat us? And then how do we treat others?

This is so good. I just want to like take all the notes. I can’t wait for the book to come out. Because this is, I think this is an area where Boundaries have become, you know, kind of a popular thing to talk about, but people have such different ideas of, you know, what that means.

And as I’m hearing you explain the different areas, I’m really hearing this idea that you have to be paying attention to your emotions. It’s like each boundary, it’s like, that’s how you know when you have a boundary or maybe you need to set a boundary is when you’re feeling like, Oh, I wish I had spoken up.

Or, you know, you’re feeling frustrated. Frozen or violated, or you’re feeling resentful. Resentment is a big one. Totally. Absolutely. One of the things I run into with people is when they start setting boundaries, and I feel this way too, and I have my own kind of like very basic, uh, guideline test for people, but.

They feel bad. Like a lot of times they’re like, okay, I’m setting the boundary, but like now I feel like a bad person.

So there’s actually a chapter in my book called, It’s Not Your Fault. And it’s not because boundaries is not something people are taught. In fact, we’re usually taught the opposite. We are taught that if you set a boundary, people aren’t going to like you, right?

And we’re taught that by people who love us, right? Because they don’t want us to set boundaries and not be liked. The challenge is, we are also taught that by people who don’t want us to have boundaries. That’s true. Right? So, it’s really, really hard to overcome that idea. And one of the things, that’s one of the reasons that I talk about, like, boundaries are not just what you don’t want.

Boundaries are what you want. So let’s talk about what it means to be somebody who sets boundaries. Yes. It means that somebody comes into your life and treats you in a way that You, you don’t love, right? And maybe, maybe they call you a name, or maybe in the very first message to you, and I’m sure you’ve gotten a few of these on like dating sites or whatever, you know, Hey Heather, I think you’re really attractive and I would love to beep, beep, beep you.

Right?

Yeah, definitely received,

um,

several of

those. And so what do you do? Right? Like at this point, most fems on dating sites are like, I’m just going to block them, right? I just don’t even have the energy to set a boundary. But in and of itself, that is a boundary. It is. You have just made it very clear that that’s not acceptable in your life.

Yes.

What if though, that person is already in your life and you’re out to dinner and you’ve been dating for a couple of months and then they do something that makes you feel uncomfortable. That’s when we start going, Oh, I don’t want to ruin this. Here’s the thing. Yes. what we Are you ruining it if that behavior is not something you’re willing to live with for the rest of your life?

This is a great question, Nuki, and this is where I see people go wrong every single time because, you know, my last episode that just came out this week was all about authenticity and people pleasing and so I feel like this is the perfect Perfect. I’m not sure. We’ll probably wait and release this one until your book comes out so people aren’t like hanging on the edge of their seats.

But um, so we won’t like torture you people. If you’re listening to this, you can assume the book is out, but maybe go back and listen to the authenticity one too.

Just so you know, though, there is. It’s a free 100 page sample download. You don’t even have to put in your email address. You can just download the first 100 pages.

It’s not perfect. It’s a little rough, but it gives you the idea. So you know, if you want to check it out, even if the book is out and you just want to check out my writing style and my style. Silly illustrations. You’ll get to see the otter carrying her

shitshield.

Um,

But I mean, I think what you’re saying is so important, because it’s like, we have this really, really deep need for belonging as humans, you know, and it makes sense even from like a survival perspective.

But so when anything threatens that, It’s like, Oh, I can’t do it. You know? And so what I was talking about in the authenticity episode is like, we’re actually preventing ourselves from having true intimacy and being fully seen because we’re not being authentic anyways. And so someone likes some made up version of us, not us.

Here’s something interesting. I’m gonna, I’m gonna read this to you because somebody said this to me this morning. I posted something about how the most dynamic and attractive people I know have strong healthy boundaries. And this person wrote that she’s learning to set up healthy boundaries, and it’s a long process to go from boundary less to healthy.

And they’re used to fitting themselves into a social network, right? And it took a long time for them to stop trying harder and harder and harder to be able to walk away from people in situations that weren’t healthy. And instead they emptied their emotional resources, it spilled over into their intellectual lives, and it affected other people in their life as well.

And they said that the beautiful thing about setting up boundaries now is that all of a sudden they’re starting to meet authentic people. who are kind and wholesome and have boundaries so clear, as they put it, aliens can see them from Mars. And I mean,

that’s so valid. Like there’s so much upside to it that doesn’t get talked about enough.

It’s crazy. And that’s the thing. Like, so When you’re clearing out all these people who want to take advantage of you and use you and stomp all over your boundaries, whether they’re conscious of it or not, right, I like to say manipulation is always intentional, but it’s not always conscious. Like, they know what they’re hoping to get out of you, right?

And it’s, it’s worked for them before, but they may not realize that it’s actually manipulation. But that’s, that’s a whole nother story. I’ve got a mini book I’m gonna write on gaslighting, manipulation, and scunnery of the worst sorts. But when people who do those sorts of things are stopped, and you just say, Hey, that’s actually not right.

I said no, and you’re pushing me. If they aren’t able to say, Oh shit, I’m sorry, you’re right. Removing them from your life so that people who would respond that way and say thank you so much for letting me know your needs and your boundaries can get in.

100%. And I think it does take a willingness to maybe be a little bit more lonely in the short term.

But you gotta trust that, like, you’re gonna start attracting those people who share your values around boundaries. One

of the closing chapters in the book is, I’m not gonna lie, it’s gonna hurt. It’s so

true.

It’s

gonna hurt. But like, part of me is like, life’s gonna hurt anyways. Like, you might

as well have it hurt in a good direction.

Life is gonna hurt one way or another. And it’s going to hurt a lot more. To keep allowing people to take advantage of you. But it feels like it hurts more because it hurts more, more quickly. When all of a sudden you’re beginning to realize that that person doesn’t actually want me in their lives. They want what they can get out of me.

That’s, oh,

and it’s tough. I do want to just sort of like Empathize with anyone who’s listening to this and they’re like, Uh, I’m going to have to set this boundary, aren’t I? And it’s going to suck. Yes. Yes, it will.

Until it doesn’t. But if you don’t set the boundary, then you’re putting up with, for example, that stupid nickname for the rest of your life, potentially.

And do you really want to hear it when every single time you die inside?

Right. That’s, I mean, it’s a great point and you know, like I gave the example with my friend saying she can’t hang out this weekend and I would always at this point in my life rather have people like that who are going to be honest and authentic.

And so when we’re hanging out, I know she wants to, when we’re talking, I know it’s because she wants to. Versus people who I’ve had in my life and some of these friendships have recently ended or are shifting dramatically where people have even said to me like, you know, I haven’t been showing up authentically or I’ve been really non confrontational to the point that like I should have said some things that I didn’t.

And so it’s kind of like puts me in a position as the receiver of like, okay, so I kind of can’t really trust our whole relationship up to this point.

Yeah. That, that is exactly, so that is perfect example. That’s one of the things when I talk about like skyrocketing your relationships with better boundaries is the idea that a boundary is something that can really make you feel better about the people you hang out with because you, you find out that.

You can trust them, right? You can, you know, like I say to people, and this is actually one of the questions I ask in the book. How would it feel to you to have a friend or a partner who you knew spent time with you because they valued you and what you bring to their life and they’re only going to spend time with you when they want to?

Like, that means so much more that every single time, every single minute you spend with me is because you want to.

Right. And you’re framing this in such a nice way because I think, you know, we hear so much about how to set boundaries. And honestly, a lot of the ways I hear about how to set boundaries sound like very aggressive and like not very nice to me.

And I’m kind of like, this is not what I would tell people, but if you want to post that on Instagram, do you. But, you know, we don’t hear as much about how to receive boundaries. And I do think people can get hurt and people can get defensive, so I just, I’m excited that we’re, like, framing this in a way that’s, like, not only do you not have to be hurt and defensive, you can actually be, like, sweet!

This is an authentic person with, like, healthy, you know, I don’t know, good emotional health.

One of the things I do talk about in the book is, one of the phrases that you don’t want to say when you’re setting a boundary is, that’s my boundary. Like, that is a great way to end a conversation or put somebody on the defensive right away, right?

Like, don’t do that. That’s my boundary. What? What? You know, like, So, I, I also talk about, like, ways to use words. So, let’s talk about, cause you, you mentioned, you know, how to set boundaries. Let’s talk about the ways we set boundaries. I like to say that there are three, sometimes five, simple, not necessarily easy, Steps, right?

So the first step is set it just for all of you to know These are actually the sections in my book. So the first step first section is set it which means What are your boundaries? If you don’t know what your boundaries are, you’re not gonna be able to, like, communicate them to anybody else, right? So you’re defining the boundary, and you’re setting it for yourself.

Step two, clearly express and maintain your boundary. Generally speaking, again, don’t say, Stop it. That’s my boundary. Say something along the lines of like, Hey, sorry, I just realized that, you know, next Tuesday I overbooked. Um, could I offer you next Thursday evening or Saturday during the day or whatever?

As opposed to, I, you know, I double booked and I’m overwhelmed and, you know, just that’s my boundary. Like, don’t even ask me, right? Like that’s, it’s, it’s how are we being compassionate to others? Again, boundaries and ethics. Right? How would we want to be treated in the same situation? Step three, once you have stated your boundary and made it clear that it matters to you, watch to see what happens over time, and then review your actions and theirs.

So that’s the review it. step. Now that might be all you need to do. So let me give you an example. Prior to these surgeries, my partner and I were going out to the movies and we were chitchatting about some of the things we needed to get into place for, you know, my recovery. And I said to him, I said, well, one of the things I’m going to need for my convalescence is yada, yada, yada, yada.

And he’s like, Ooh, uh, I don’t like that word. I’m like, what word? Convalescence? He’s like, yeah, I don’t like it. It sounds bad. It sounds like an old folks home. And I’m like, okay, um, what word would you like instead? Recovery? He’s like, I like that better. I’m like, okay, that simple, right? But couldn’t you also see that conversation going, you don’t like convales what?

Come on, it’s just a stupid word, you know? Like, it’s convalescence, like it means

Right, you’re not the one having the surgeries, I’m gonna use whatever word I want. Exactly,

exactly, right? Like, we don’t need to have conversations like that, do we? And it’s, it’s just a word. So I still use the word convalescence.

I don’t use it around him because it makes him anxious for me. Right. Which I can see as the partner, yes. I don’t want him to be anxious or feel bad or, like, I don’t want to ever make him feel bad unintentionally.

I don’t know if everyone caught that. She’s got a little devilish grin going on, like, maybe on purpose sometimes.

There’s a joke, and I’ll get to the other two steps here. There’s a joke. that became like kind of a platform of mine, which is, do you want to kick a puppy? And so Heather, do you want to kick a puppy?

No.

So you don’t ever want to kick a puppy. So you wouldn’t kick a puppy. Correct. Right. Okay. Excellent. So what does that mean when you’re in an argument and you throw barbs at your partner?

So that’s, is that the metaphorical,

you don’t kick a puppy because you don’t want to. But when you hurt your partner, you’re doing it because you want them to hurt with you. And when you stop to think about it, and you say, I don’t ever want my partner to hurt because of me, then you start taking a whole new look at how you do relationships and boundaries.

So, anyway, okay, so, step four and five, which are optional, because of course, You might have just done what I did, and it’s like, okay, you told me your boundary. I just stopped. Simple. That was easy. Right? Yeah. Easy peasy. Step four is repeat it. So, maybe you need to state it again. Possibly with like a deeper explanation.

Right? If you didn’t notice change or real effort, maybe you caught them like at a bad time. Or your communication wasn’t clear, or they’re doing what they thought you wanted and you know, they might require more explanation to get it through their thick skull, right? So that’s when you start saying, okay, um, how long am I willing to wait for change or at least honest effort?

How will I measure that change or honest effort? Um, am I willing to offer assistance? Or reminders, like for, like if these are things that are like really hard for somebody to change. You might help them, but you also don’t want to nag them, right? And so then you set up a time to have this discussion with them and, and make it, make sure that you’re both really clear on what this is about.

This is often, like, big relationship stuff, right? Like, I really would like you to put in more effort making me feel loved and not just like a sexual object playing grab ass all the time, right? They’re used to playing grab ass. So. There might be some redirection and like, asking for things more during that, I’m willing to give this six months, or whatever it is.

And then the last step is change. If your boundary is still not honored, you have a change to make. Maybe you change your boundary. Maybe you change your relationship. Maybe you change yourself and what you’re willing to accept. But change, right? So, in some cases, you know, things like, um, My partner talks to himself.

And he talks to himself in exactly the same tone of voice that he talks to me. And, I’m more than a little bit deaf, so when he talks to me in that tone of voice from the kitchen, um, I don’t know if he’s talking to me, and I have to say, what baby? Or if he’s talking to himself. Right. And I say, what baby?

And he’s like, nothing, just talking to myself. So I can either Ask him to speak up, which he’s never going to be able to do because he’s talking to himself, right? Like he’s never going to be like, okay, baby, I’m going to talk to myself so you can ignore this now. Like that’s not going to happen.

Right.

I can be annoyed for the rest of my life.

Right. It’s an option.

Or I can kind of make it a game in my head, which is what I’ve done. And every single time he says something that I don’t catch, I say, what baby? And when he says, nothing, I’m talking to myself, I can laugh because he’s talking to himself. And usually he’s not just talking to himself.

He’s usually like singing Hamilton lyrics or something to himself. So like, it’s a, it’s like a whole thing, right? Like, so then after a while, you know how, like, sometimes you don’t hear it and then they say nothing. And then your brain finally gets around to parsing what was going on. And he’s over there, like, you know, singing.

Why does a bastard

orphan son of a Oh my god. You’re like He sounds like kind of entertaining.

He is literally the best human I’ve ever known and he is highly enter Like Okay, so he will literally, like Walk by if I were on a podcast here with you and like, you know, he came in and he realized I was busy He would like walk into just my sight like my line of sight not looking directly at him but just where I can see him out of the corner of my eye and then he would like shake his booty and throw me a kiss and then like walk upstairs to his office like he’s Freaking delightful.

I just can’t even with this man but I’m going to tie this to boundaries. One of the reasons that both of us can do this and be silly and enjoy each other’s company so much is that when something isn’t right, isn’t wonderful, or feels like, ah, I don’t like that word, we simply say it, right? And that’s years of practice.

I feel like vicarious relief hearing that because You know, what happens in most of the relationships that I work with, which, you know, granted they’ve preselected to come see me. This is not just like random people on the street, so we’ll keep that selection bias in mind. But you know, it’s the opposite.

It’s kind of like we don’t talk about things or we yell about things. And so what happens is there’s, you know, I think about this energetically and emotionally, it’s like there’s this buildup of almost like relationship. Plaque in your relationship arteries

or somebody earlier today who is coming to me with some questions for coaching.

It was, yeah, it was, I was like all these little, the little things, the resentments, the annoyances, like all of these things that are unspoken or spoken with spite or whatever they build up and the love and the affection and the silliness and the authenticity cannot get through.

100%. Oh my God, great minds think alike.

We absolutely do. Great heathers think alike. Um, so, so yeah, so it’s like just to hear that, like, we don’t let shit build up. I think so much, you know, of the time people are afraid to have the conversation because it might go poorly, but it’s, it’s almost like routine maintenance. It’s like, you go to the dentist and you get rid of the plaque on your teeth every six months.

It’s like the same thing. It’s like, you need to be doing this on our. Regular recurring basis to prove absolutely

and that’s one of the reasons that I say I’m not gonna lie. It’s gonna hurt because When you’re learning to set boundaries also, you know, we talked about like how you said, oh my gosh I’m not sure I would set boundaries that way but you know, whatever When you’re learning to set boundaries, you’re not necessarily good at it Like, so, I spent 22 years as a, um, enthusiastic amateur dog trainer.

I did some competitions, like, I just, I love working with dogs. And one of the things that is critically important when you’re working with a dog and training a dog is that you be confident in your leadership. When setting boundaries, it’s being kind and compassionate with your words and having conviction that you have a a right to your boundaries and that takes practice and you’re gonna screw up a lot in between right like you’re gonna throw that fit when it was completely unnecessary and you’re gonna you’re gonna you’re gonna say something snappish at somebody instead of saying hey man that’s not cool don’t do that right like because you don’t know how it’s kind of like A toddler learning to walk, right?

Like they kind of, they get up and then they fall, and then they get up and then they stumble, and then they kind of like run halfway across the room and then fall flat on their face, right? And eventually You get to a point where, like me, you only trip over a painted line, like, once every three months. Um, so Which is damn good, people.

And I can, I can breathe and walk at the same time now. So this is, like, this is progress after 50 years. Um, so yeah, like, so you’re gonna make mistakes. And if you’re doing this with a partner that you’ve already got all that plaque buildup with You’re both going to make mistakes

and it’s going to take a while to get rid of all the plaque.

Lots of them. And that’s really hard because you’re going to have like you want it all to be better and you’re working on it to be better But you’re still and that’s going to be frustrating as all get out.

That’s a good time to get a coach or a therapist.

Bing!

That is

a good time to get a coach or a therapist.

So yeah, I mean like it’s it’s It’s difficult to make change. It’s more difficult, let me just throw this in there, and I, I mentioned this in the, um, in one of the chapters where I’m talking about, do you want to involve your partner in boundary setting right away? And the answer might be no, right? You might want to start practicing and learning how to set boundaries on your own without going to your partner and say, Hey, our life is a lie.

Let’s make radical change.

I think one of the themes of this is like the delivery matters, people.

How you say these things always matters. Be conscious. Even something as simple as, so I just had surgery two weeks ago and I’m not allowed to do anything strenuous with my arms above my head because double mastectomy, reconstruction, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So that means that my partner gets to wash my hair. And cause my hair is really heavy when it’s wet. Like it is, it is a lot of hair. And, um. We were in the shower the other day and he’s washing my hair and I’m like, oh god, this is so amazing. I don’t think I’ll ever wash my own hair again. And something came into my head and I realized that the day before I’d been kind of poking at my friend about this person that he’s going bikepacking with that I don’t like, like I really don’t like them.

And so I was, I’d kind of said something snarky. And for some reason, while I was in the shower, This popped into my head and I said to my sweetie, I said, Hey, sweetie, by the way, I’m like, and this has nothing to do with anything right now. It just popped into my head. If my picking at fill in the blank here ever gets to be too much for you, just let me know.

Like, that’s kind of like my, my natural bitchiness coming out. It doesn’t have to be though, right? Like, I don’t have to do that around you if for some reason you feel like I’m hurting you. By not liking them.

That’s like a proactive reverse boundary.

Right. Right. So that’s the other thing. Again, boundaries and ethics.

How do you want people to treat you? Do you want people to be able to think, Oh gosh, maybe I did something wrong there and they haven’t even really noticed? But if I offer to them, they can, like, so, I, let, let’s just call that expert level boundarying, right? Like, so, this is the type of thing that I would

agree, definitely expert level.

To

tie this back into relationships, in the beginning of relationships. Um, I’m actually working, once I get this book out, the next mini book I’m working on is called Start With No. For those people who are out in the, like, dating world. And it’s the idea that you want to start with boundaries as quickly as possible.

So when somebody says, hey, are you available on Tuesday? You say, I am not available on Tuesday, but I could possibly do Thursday. And see how they respond. Because what some people will do is get upset, right? What some people will do is just all of a sudden, like, they’ll feel rejected. And they’ll just sort of like, stop talking.

Right? And some people will say, Oh, Thursday doesn’t work for me, but I’m really excited to meet you. Let’s compare our schedules. And that’s the person who obviously has their own boundaries. Right? And that’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking for somebody that you can negotiate with, and more importantly, collaborate with, to create a relationship in the sweet spot.

Where, for those of you who don’t know, the sweet spot, according to me, is a Venn diagram. Two circles overlapping. This is what you want. This is what I want. Our relationship is the overlap, right? So everything my partner and I have about a 70 75 percent overlap. So 25 percent of our lives is Ours to do whatever with other people like I’m not going bikepacking with him I’m not I might some point in the future, but right now that is not in my this is what I want circle It’s not in the overlap.

That’s fine, right? He has, like, zero, zero desire to go thrifting with me. Okay, fine, I’ll do that with my girlfriends. I don’t need to drag him along. Like, he has less than zero interest, right? Building a relationship in the sweet spot. So if you can start with no, if you can start saying no, and setting boundaries with people you don’t know, you’re gonna weed them out so much faster, and find the people who can set boundaries with and for you.

So much more quickly

and I mean, I think that’s so important what you’re saying I also just want to add because I know people listening are gonna be like, oh, yeah I should just say no, even if I’m available. No authentically, we’re gonna set these boundaries authentically So if you’re free on Tuesday, don’t say you’re busy But if you genuinely are like I’m technically free but like I actually really need to rest that’s valid Yes that like that’s valid to back, you know, Tuesday’s not great.

Could we do this other day?

Tuesday’s not free because I’ve already written to my calendar that I’m spending it with my cat. And

that, like, that is valid. You know, that’s basically what my friend just told me that I was like, Hey, rest is real. But I think sometimes we just count it when it’s ourselves.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, and that’s the thing, you know, like just setting the boundary or like if somebody is, you’re, you’re, you know, four or five paragraphs into a conversation and somebody starts calling you honey. Oh my God. I hate that so much. Like for me, I’d be like. Please don’t call me honey. I

just can’t.

Yeah.

I don’t, I don’t like that term really. Like I’ll take it from a diner waitress with bleach blonde hair who’s getting me pancakes. Not from some dude I might go on a date with.

Right. Absolutely. Yeah, I feel the same way. Right, and so that’s valid, you know, thing to set a boundary on too. Like there’s so many, obviously as you covered, so many different ways you can set a boundary.

And I agree, like if somebody responds well, if I do have to set a boundary, It’s such a nice sign of their like emotional maturity and like their security within themselves and like, oh wow They don’t just need everything on their terms. Like they’re not just all ego drip. Like this is it tells you a lot

Yeah, and you might as well start while the relationship is fresh makes it so much easier than having to Fix it later.

Oh my God. So true. But don’t get discouraged if you’re ready later and need to fix it. True. Still do the work. You can still both do it. Yeah. And you’ve got me here and you’ve got Nikki here and we can also help you. So speaking of that, if people are like, Oh, this was so helpful. Like, how do I find out more about this Nikki lady?

And like, how can I work with her? Where would they find you? Uh, my. curiouser. life. My. curiouser. life. We will link to that in the show notes. Um, and you’re also, you’re on social media as well, right?

Okay, so I, I am on social media. I haven’t been recently because of, you know, my surgeries and stuff. That’s very legit.

I’ve been kind of like laying low and not doing a whole lot on social media. And the book has been a priority, getting the book done. Of course, once the book is out, I’ll be all over social media again. So, primarily, um, Facebook and YouTube are, you know, where I, I focus. Cause. Conversations and stuff. Oh, and on the, the, that my.

curiouser. life is where you can download The sample book. The first 100 pages. Okay.

Um. And when it’s for sale, will the book be for sale there as well? Or should they go to Amazon? Or?

I’ll, I’ll have links to it. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. I’ll be like, yeah! I’ll be putting links everywhere. Like, I’ll have it probably tattooed on my forehead or something, you know?

I’m so excited! I feel like everyone needs to read this book. I’m excited to read it, so.

I completely agree. Everyone needs to read this book. Yeah.

Thanks everyone for listening and we’ll put all the links, um, in the show notes so you can check out. Bye, everybody.

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