Hello, my loves. Uh, we are back this week with a very special guest. Um, somebody that I met at Podfest Orlando recently. Um, so help me welcome Damona Hoffman. Uh, Damona is a certified dating coach and a regular cast member of the Drew Barrymore show and a frequent contributor to NPR. The Washington Post, the LA times and access Hollywood.
Her podcast dates and mates was named podcast of the year at the black podcasting awards in 2022. And her first book F the fairy tale was recently released January 2nd, check it out if you’re watching on video, uh, 2024 and hit number one on the Amazon bestseller list. So welcome Damona. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you. Yeah. I can finally say I’m a. Am I’m a best selling author. I mean, I’m like Amazon parenthetical, but that’s a big deal. I mean, that’s where most people buy. A hundred percent. Yeah.
Yeah. It is weird. And we were just talking about how, like, you’re just kind of like focusing on what you can do and the step ahead of you and keeping your nose down, but it is good to just like celebrate sometimes, you know,
That’s right.
I, I really believe in that. Celebrating the small moments, you know, we just had Valentine’s Day, which is always the biggest day of the year in the dating coaching business. And we make such a big deal about that, but it’s like, what about other days? Yeah. Yeah. We’re still here. We’re still here. A
hundred percent.
Yeah. I mean, I’m terrible at like the holidays and in my industry, like there’s so many different days and I just feel like, Oh my God, I need like a whole calendar and I’m just not that organized. Um, but yeah, I’m like relationships and intimacy matter every day. So let’s just, let’s just do it every day.
But I, I started looking at your book and I was like, Oh, this is, this is a good book. This is different. And, um, I love the title, F the Fairy Tale. How did you come up with the concept and the title for this?
Well, the concept preceded the title. Um, originally, I was really seeing a lot of, a lot of people being attached to old narratives in my practice.
People would come in with these. Lists a mile long that didn’t actually connect to anything that they told me they wanted in their life. And they were being consumed by the rules and the game and chasing chemistry and asking for their soulmate. And I was like, man, all of these things are myths. These are dating.
Myths that maybe were true at one point, but now have kind of evolved just into stories that we continue to tell ourselves and tell
people.
And I wanted to give people, first of all, a wake up call, and second of all, a roadmap to be able to move forward. Out of that space and into the reality of designing our own love lives and relationship futures.
So originally it was really focused on the myths, but I felt like I needed a title that Captured the overall zeitgeist of dating today that like, what are people writing into my podcast into dates and mates saying they are feeling and they’re saying, they’re saying F dating really, but all the time. Yes.
Yeah. What they’re really saying is F the fairytale. What they really need to be saying is F the fairytale, that, that old story does not apply to me necessarily.
And
I look at it as really empowering. It’s really the subtitle of the book that, that resonates most for me. Rewrite the dating myths and live your own love story.
It’s that empowerment piece that I really want people to take away from reading it.
I love that. And I mean, I think part of me, so I’m, I’m, I’m a romantic, right? Like, I love love, I love helping people save their relationships and turn things around, and I love hearing how people met and how they fall, fell in love and all that good stuff.
Um, but like, does the romance get lost at all? Like, if we’re saying F the fairy tale, is the romance still there? And like, how do we even conceptualize romance if it’s not the fairy tale?
Yeah, see, that’s the thing, Heather. I’m not really a romantic. Oh my God, that’s so interesting. I’m a realist. I’m a realist.
Okay. And I, I think you can have, you know, the magic and the discovery. And I say this as someone who has been happily married for 16 years, almost 17. That’s pretty good. Um, it’s pretty good. And, and in Hollywood years, it’s, it’s 75. Like amazing. Unheard of. Right. But it, it doesn’t. Look the same way that the fairy tales looked it doesn’t look the way that the rom coms told me it would look and actually the Rom coms had me as a total love cynic.
I was like, well, that’s not gonna happen So it was actually really empowering for me to say. Oh, I can I can actually seek out a partner who’s a feminist and who is a 50 50 caretaker for our children and you know who Is, is my idea of Prince Charming, not what’s in, in the books, you know? Okay. Okay. So I just.
I, I, I hear what you’re saying about not, not being romantic, but I think we put a lot of pressure and weight on the romance. And a lot of times we don’t do enough to create the scenario ourselves.
Okay. This is very good. I think this is going to be so important for people listening, including myself. Ask me for a friend.
Ask me for a sex therapist. Just for my listeners, I swear. Um, so how do we embrace the realism? Like, what does that look like? How do we go from like, Oh my God, it’s gonna be my soulmate. I’m so excited. It’s gonna be so romantic to like, just like a realistic, healthy, happy relationship.
Well, we stay in the moment, first of all.
Okay. Because a lot of the anxiety that we feel in relationships comes from either ruminating on the past or projecting to the future. 100%. And we’re not, we’re not here enough. We’re not in this moment enough. And really engaging with the person in front of us
and
listening. And also taking responsibility for co creating this experience.
Because I hear a lot in dating today of like, Oh, this person did this to me. There’s so much ghosting. Dating acts are the problem. There’s a lot of deflection of the responsibility. Which I understand. I understand we don’t want to sit in that icky
place.
But that icky place Is only icky because we’re, that’s how we’re reading it as icky.
And if we use it, it can actually be a place of transformation. And, you know, I say a lot in the book that relationships are a mirror. And dating is a set of learned skills. Like, if we can flip to our relationships being the, the space where we can learn the most about ourselves.
Mm hmm.
It’s takes on a whole new sense of, of wonder and discovery and magic because that is an endless well.
It’s not an end point. It’s,
it’s constant. And I agree. I think that is where we learn the most about ourselves is our relationships because yeah, you’re forced to be like, Oh, I’m the comment denominator like, Oh, my store, I’m projecting my story about how my partner should be onto them. And that’s not working.
Um, Transcribed Yeah. I love that. And one of the things that you, you wrote in the book that I wanted to ask about specifically was like making the list. Right. Cause I, and I, I feel like so many advisors or dating coaches out there are kind of like, well, you need to, you know, manifest and you need to like get super clear and like super specific.
And I’ve had people tell me like, I made a list one time and had like 80 things. And then I met my partner and they had like all 80 plus some or like, you know, um, I know. And you’re just like, Oh, okay, that’s like what I’m supposed to do. And then I’m witnessing some of my friends who are dating and you know, it just seems like they have so many deal breakers.
So what’s, what’s your approach or advice to that situation?
Well, I want to clarify that I don’t, I do believe in manifestation and it’s not just It’s not that I’m saying don’t have a list. It’s that I’m asking people to look at what’s on the list and ask them how that adds up to their overall vision board of life, right?
Because people will come in and tell me I. I want to be the CEO of my company and I want to have four kids and I wanted to have a big house and a white picket fence and you know, and whatever, whatever’s been sort of spoon fed to them. Right. And therefore, you know, especially with, with. High achieving women I’ll hear, and I need him to be at my income level or higher.
Oh my God. Super ambitious. Yes. Um, also be a co parent and I’m like, who, who’s doing all of the things, I mean, I live that life right now. I have two kids. I have a husband. I have a business I run and it’s hard. I need all hands on deck. So if, if I was focused on having somebody that was. Also, super ambitious and also, uh, and, and like maybe couldn’t tolerate the fact that I travel a lot for work or I need help with the kids.
Like I knew for me, a traditional relationship was just never going to work. So I want folks to really examine their list and say, what have I just carried over? Like why, why is height on this list? What, like what does that even
mean? I have the biggest issue with the height criteria that women have. It makes no sense and it does not predict how good of a partner someone’s gonna be at all.
In fact, shorter men make better partners.
I love a short King. I now granted I am very, I’m very petite and I have been, I have been criticized slash attack by many taller women. They’re like, why are you taking the tall ones? I’m like, cause I’m not looking at the height. I’m not, that is, does not even factor into my calculus, but there, it is a part of, I did a video on Instagram about dating math and I, you know, cause I hear that a lot and.
You’re exactly right. It doesn’t add up to what kind of partner. It, this person is, but it does make sense in that it is a relic of a time in the past. And like, we’re, we’re evolving like pretty slowly. Oh, technology is evolving much quicker than our, well then, yeah, then our, then our biology. Oh, that makes sense.
So there’s this dissonance that comes up when it’s, when. Certain factors in our external environment have changed, but we have not adapted yet. So we’re still thinking tall means provider means good. And then it gets reinforced by all of these. Stories that we read and rom coms that we see. It really does.
Meanwhile, everyone in Hollywood is like, 5’8 Okay. That’s interesting, yeah. It’s all perspective. It just kind of reminds you, it’s all perspective. So I’m just asking folks to really look at this list and say, how does this list line up with the life that you’re building and what really, as you said, Heather, what really translates into the kind of partner.
That you need in your life
and
what is really important to you. And I also get people to drill down into how they want to feel in the relationship. Oh, I love that.
That’s like one
of my favorite questions. Yeah, because we, we can quote manifest and put on a vision board. I want it to look like this. Sure.
But if you haven’t stopped to think about what’s it going to feel like, then you’re not going to recognize it because it may come in different packaging than you’re used to, than you’re expecting. And you’re focused on that image on the vision board and you’re missing the whole picture.
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s like, how do we get out of our own way with that?
Well, by really focusing in on what’s important. So I give my clients, and I’ve mentioned this in F the Fairy Tale, I, I give everyone three must haves and one deal breaker.
Oh my God, that’s so little.
I know. I know because it leaves room for discovery. It leaves room for the person to be a whole person.
That’s the other thing that I think we sometimes forget. We’re like checking boxes. You know, fitting, fitting, fitting puzzle pieces in, and then a person has autonomy and free will and does something that doesn’t fit into the story. And we’re like, right,
how dare they? Who is this person?
It’s like, they’re a complete whole individual with their own vision board and manifestations that have lists and rules and deal breakers and all that.
Right. So as you said with your friends, we We can always find a reason to say no, so that’s why I, I say one deal breaker, like what is one thing you just Cannot tolerate because there are so many things that I had originally on my list by the way I don’t say this from nothing. I write in this book is from like a holier than thou like well, it’s Right.
I have it all figured out finally. Yes. I’ve divinely received this information No, I went through The crap. I went through the heartbreak and the incorrect decisions and the discovery and the learning
and
came out the other side and realized, oh, so it wasn’t actually important that my partner does yoga or has perfect teeth or I know you’re laughing.
These are things that at one point in my life, I was like, must
have, right? Right. Or like, I need a super spiritual guy or I need, you know, yeah. The guy who’s six foot two and has a six pack. And it’s like, do you, do you, and honey,
the six pack. Give it, give it five years, two kids, it’s coming, it’s coming, it is inevitable.
So you might as well accept it from the beginning. Right.
Right. It’s true. Like, I’m, I’m a big Eckhart Tolle fan and he, he talks about, um, kind of our attachment to like the vessel, you know, and he’s like, if you’re attached to like, being super hot and sexy like physically and like getting your whole identity from that.
It’s like, you know, life has a few things to teach you. So, um, yeah. Yeah. And.
Again, if you’re building most of my clients are building a towards a long term relationship. So I also acknowledge that for short term, short term relationships and hookups, there’s a whole different set of criteria completely. I don’t really address in the book because Fair.
That is not, that is not the goal of the book. They’re probably not going to buy the book anyways. It’s fine. Yeah. It’s fine. Yeah. I mean, they should buy it, but. They should. Take it all with a grain of salt because it’s all, really, it’s all about designing the relationship that you want. And I do give.
Permission not that anyone needs my permission that short term relationships are okay And it’s also okay to not be in a season of pursuit of a long term relationship. I feel like there’s a lot of pressure Particularly on women particularly on women in their 30s Yeah, be like on this relationship hmm may not be your season and that’s okay Yeah, too.
So when but when we’re looking at Long term Relationships. It’s, it’s, it’s important to, to take in the whole person and acknowledge that this is what you see in this moment. But, you know, it’s for richer, for poorer, for sickness and, and in health, like. There’s no guarantees. I know. So what’s inside is so much more important because the external can and certainly will change.
Yeah. And I saw you had in the book like the four pillars and I was like, Oh, these are good ones. So can you tell us about the four pillars and like what they actually mean in practice?
Yeah. And I’ve been talking about the four pillars for a very long time. Mm hmm. It was very convenient that I realized they actually align well with these four dating myths.
And so I really structured in the book the pillars that I’ve always guided my clients towards as remedies, as antidotes to the myths that we’ve been believing. So rather than pursuing the list, if you can instead focus in on first, Common goals for the future. Like, do you want what I want? Are you also looking for a long term relationship?
Are you looking for a short term relationship? Do you want kids? Do you not want kids? Do you want to travel? Like, basic relationship goals. First of all, aligning there. Then, aligning values. How do you look at the world? What do you believe to be true about the world? How do you live your life?
And
it sounds so simple, but I find that a lot of people aren’t even really clear on their own values.
So then it becomes really complicated to assess when you’re sitting in a crossroom person on a date.
Wait,
are we aligned in values? Because I’m, I’m not even really sure what I believe. Yeah. So we have to get clear on that before or as we are going through the dating process. I don’t believe that. You need to stop dating and go through, like, there are some coaches that’ll be like, You need to, like, go to the mountain, get clarity, and then you can re emerge into the dating
role.
Ready? No. I think we learn in relationship. Agreed. We learn in relation to other people, we learn in motion. So, I think you can be doing all this simultaneously, but if it’s overwhelming for you, guess what? You get to write your own love story. Right. You can take Take a pause as needed. You can focus on self care and self love and whatever that looks like for you.
Um,
but then, eventually, you’ll have to build towards connection with another person, whatever that looks like for you. And so, communication. It, and I’m, I’m really curious on your take on that as a, as a sex therapist. Yeah. Communication is really important and I, I say in the book, instead of chasing chemistry, which is the myth, really chasing curiosity and communication and connection because that’s ultimately what we want.
We don’t want chemistry. God, I was going
to ask you about that and now it’s just coming up. That is so fascinating to me because, um, first of all, you just named two of the qualities of self energy. So I’m, I’m an IFS therapist. And so we talk about self energy, which is like your higher consciousness, and we talk about parts, which are kind of more protective defense mechanisms.
Um, but connection and curiosity are two of the. Eight C words that are used to define self energy. And so I was like, Oh, okay, it’s interesting, the overlap. Um, yeah.
know that.
I know you didn’t. That’s why it’s like when everything converges, you know what I mean? It’s like, I think whether you come from the dating coach perspective or, you know, Buddhism or, uh, you know, internal family systems, parts work, it’s like, it’s all kind of pointing people, I think, in the same direction.
Which, to me, means that it’s right.
Right, well, and Um, we’ve all come to this place through research and case studies and, you know, it’s, it, we’re seeing it in practice. It’s not theoretical. So, um, I’m not surprised. I’m surprised. I’m not surprised.
Yeah. And the communication piece that you mentioned too, like, that’s the number one thing people want to work on with sex.
You know, a lot of times I’ll work with people more on the communication and like emotional mastery before we even get into the sexual stuff. The mastery on that level. We’re just not going to get anywhere. Um, so yeah, so that’s usually like the first homeworks. And I actually built, uh, an emotional intelligence course into my three month package because I was like, everyone just needs this.
So
everyone needs it. Yeah. And And it’s the thing that’s not taught in schools. And yet it is probably the, the element of our learning that is most beneficial in being able to navigate the world. 100%. Yeah.
Right. And I think especially, you know, men are really done a disservice from the patriarchy actually, um, with their emotions.
You know, let’s get into it because I see this still in like reality TV. It’s like, Oh, don’t cry, bro. Or don’t. And I’m like, what the fuck? Let him cry.
Yeah. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Oh. Well, a hundred percent, I agree with you. I’m like, the answer to all questions, I say this to my husband, the answer to all questions is either because the patriarchy or because racism.
Those are the only possible answers. Right. Because. Isn’t that fascinating? I know. Which we, we, which I do talk about a little bit in the book, but we won’t even like get We won’t, we won’t get to, yeah, we need a lot longer to unpack all of that. But it does come down to the core, the core truth of this book,
that
we have been fed a steady diet of stories.
Oh yeah. And we believe those stories, whether they’re stories about gender roles, or they’re stories about, about how we are supposed to communicate. It’s time for us to re examine all of those stories for ourselves, because no one else, culture, society, ain’t going to do it for us.
No. It
is personal responsibility at this point.
Yes. Every man and woman for themselves. Yes. So, that’s, that’s really what I feel like we’re being called to do, and I, as horrible as the pandemic was. In so many, so many ways, I do feel like there was a bit of an awakening.
I agree.
You agree?
Yeah.
Of, oh, wait, we get to do this once. I mean. There’s some people listening, really.
Yeah. How spiritual do you want to get? And I do dabble in the spiritual. There’s not a ton of it in this book. There’s a little bit. But, okay. Theoretically, we get to do this once. And we don’t know. Our expiration date. So, why not live now? Why defer your happiness, right? Why visualize the ending of a story that hasn’t even begun?
Why not just start reading the story now? Right? Or start writing the story now. Um, so the fourth pillar, which we haven’t talked about. Which I know impacts your work as well, is trust. And that’s the one that on, on Dates and Mates, all the time, people are like, How do I know if this person is the one? They want, like, the fast forward button.
Yeah. Or just, like, to go into the truth booth and, and find out if somebody is, Are you my person? Check yes, check no. I know. And it’s, uh, something that I, I see really can only be developed through time. And aligning all of the other pillars. It’s like, okay, if we have shared, shared goals, shared values, we have clear communication, and then we have, we can build trust, then I know I have the foundation of something that can last.
But,
you know, it’s different also, I guess, in building trust in, in short term relationships, too. I’m curious how you feel like trust impacts, uh, your work. Okay.
Um,
yeah, I
think, I think sexual safety is maybe what I’ll call it is like the foundation. So you need to feel comfortable being vulnerable. You need to feel comfortable being naked with somebody.
Um, You know, I, I’m a big fan of having conversations about safety in terms of like, have you been tested? Do you have other partners? Things like that. And like, can this person answer those questions, you know, do they get weird and fidgety? Um, so part of it, there was someone who worked for me years ago, um, another therapist and she was like, you know, it’s kind of like if you’re climbing a mountain and you have a rope, you gotta like tug on the rope and see if it’s secure.
You know, it’s like, you gotta test stuff. and not in a game way. Sorry, I just,
I was going to say that I went in a whole other direction. Did you do rock climbing? Sure, that’s what they
call it these days. Oh, you’re going the shibari direction. Okay, I’m with you. You said tug, Heather, you said tug. Um, so, so yeah, I think you got to like, you know, tug on the rope metaphorically speaking, and like, is this someone I can trust?
Like, does this person show up for me when I need support? Does this person or are they gaslighting me, you know, when I’m emotional, um, like those are things to look for. And what’s fascinating to me is like. People tolerate a lot of shit. People tolerate a lot of toxicity, um, and I would like us to stop doing that.
Um, yeah. Why? Why? I, I, okay, okay. Wow. Wasn’t prepared for all the questions, but. You’re like, I thought I was asking the questions. I was interviewing you a second ago. We’re just having a
conversation.
But yeah, I think. I think a lot of it does have to do with like the self energy and the parts. So you know, the more we’re in our self energy, the more we don’t abandon ourselves and we show up for ourselves when it’s hard.
That builds incredible confidence, you know, and I think when we have that and we know that we’re okay on our own and we’re, maybe we’re still a little afraid, we might still be a little nervous. That’s okay. But then we just don’t need to put up with crap. And I think that applies to sexual relationships.
That applies to family and boundaries with family. That applies to friendships, um, but it’s a lot of work, you know, it’s like I’ve had to do that work. It’s not easy, you know, but I think you do kind of discover your own inner resilience and then you’re like, either I find someone who enhances my life or I’m single.
I was reflecting on this actually, I don’t know why. I was thinking about this this week and. Like Most of my relationships prior to my husband were pretty short term, like three, four months. And I was like, I don’t know, you got to get out and he was the first one that I really felt aligned on all of these pillars.
And just like immediately within the first month, I knew that he was different. I didn’t necessarily know he was going to be my husband, but I was like, Oh, this story is. This, I haven’t read this story before. Oh, interesting. And I was like, where did I get that conviction before to just be like, I’d really rather be single than put up with your BS.
Yeah. Cause I see that a lot, a lot of my clients are so focused on getting to the relationship
Mm hmm.
That when they have a burden hand, they’re like, I, I’m just going to. Anything that doesn’t fit into the story, I’m just going to omit, strike that out. That’s powerful. Look, the story still fits. And I was just not willing to do that whatsoever when I was single.
Yeah, same.
That’s why I’ve been single a lot. Amongst other reasons, I suppose.
And the benefit, though, of this time that we’re living in, why I wanted to write this book right now is like, look, we look Back in history, and I have a little bit of this in F the Fairytale, like women could not Get a loan on a house, could not take out a mortgage.
Yep. In, since, oh, it’s actually the, what, the 50th anniversary, I think, this year? Yeah, since 1974. Like, what, what? Like, that’s not that long ago. No, it’s really not. When you really think about Just how much choice we had and then when we factor in the internet, just opening up all of our options into getting our needs met in different ways and meeting people in different ways.
Yeah. We just have so much autonomy and choice and freedom that we never had in history before. So it’s true. Why, why would you partner if that person is not additive to your life? A hundred percent. If they don’t make the story better, like, right.
I think it’s trauma. I mean, I think it’s like people have their wounded parts and their protective mechanisms.
And some people, I think because they maybe do abandon themselves, um, they outsource getting a lot of those needs met that, you know, they could be meeting more internally. And so they feel like, Oh my God, well, I just can’t handle being alone. Or I like, don’t even know if I’m going to be okay. I’m going to be having like panic attacks.
Um, some people don’t have like full adulting skills. You know, and so I think they feel like, okay, well, I kind of know this about myself, so I kind of need to be partnered up instead of showing up for myself and developing the adulting skills. So, you know, I think, I think that’s what’s going on.
Yeah. And I, I do also think we’re very starved for connection, especially coming out of the pandemic.
Yeah. We really need that connection. And. Even though in some ways we are more connected than ever, we’re also more disconnected than ever.
Yeah. Like a hundred percent. And I, I’m from Chicago, so I, um, really experienced that living in a big city. It’s like, there’s millions of people around you. It’s like densely populated and we all just kind of ignore each other on like the L train and like go back to our little boxes in our apartment buildings.
And then get on our phones and talk to each other that way or something or like scroll on Instagram. And that’s how we stay in touch. It’s like, this is fascinating.
It is fascinating. And I, I think we’re really just at the beginning of being able to integrate technology into our, into our connection network.
Mm hmm.
Because it, it, it has to be additive. It has to be yes and it can’t be either or. Yeah. Mm hmm. And. It kills me when I see, like, a couple, I see, you see this a lot, like in reality TV, you see a couple that is together, separate, like, together but both on their phones, doing totally different things, and it’s like, you have connection right here in front of you, and you’re turning away, you know.
Have
you been watching Love is Blind?
True. Yes. Guilty as charged. Cause it immediately took me to a scene. On a reality TV show, for example. Yes. Yes. But you know, we just, we It’s funny because like in scripted, my, my husband’s a, uh, television, scripted television writer. Oh, cool. Um, but you don’t see the reality of how people communicate in the scripted shows, right?
It’s like all perfect. True. You don’t see people pull out their phone. That’s true. In the midst of somebody trying to talk to them. But like. Yeah. That’s how we really talk today. That’s how we really communicate. So it’s true. I acknowledge the system is broken, but I also want people to feel empowered to fix it.
And what I see a lot of in my practice is this acceptance of like, well, this is how it is. Like ghosting is at an all time high. I’ve never seen this level of ghosting happening. I’ve been doing this for 17 years. Okay. But we’ve almost come to the point where we’re like, well, it’s an inevitability. And so I’m just going to accept it.
No,
you don’t need to just accept it. Like, okay, this is, this is not okay behavior. It’s not okay for people to just be treating everyone like they’re completely disposable and not having any responsibility for showing up when you say you’re going to, or doing what you say you’re going to do. Right. So how are we as Humans living on this planet all going to collectively take responsibility for changing the system because if we just acquiesce and we’re like, well, I guess that’s just going to happen.
That’s just online dating for you. I know it will never get better. So what do we do? We hold people to task. Like, first of all, we hold ourselves to task. I’ve said this on Dates and Mates. A few times that people will tell me, Oh, I hate ghosting. And then if I look under the hood, I’ll be like, but what about these people that you said you.
You know, that you matched with, and then you didn’t respond to, right? You’re kind of doing the thing you said that you don’t like to do, to have done to you, and you’re doing it. So, we just have to take our own personal responsibility. And then, you know, I have little tips and tricks in the book of ways to like, reconfirm, and inspire someone to show up for you and become a real person off of the app because if you’re just like text, text, text, go right to the date, you’re just a name and a phone.
You’re not a real person. So I
totally agree on that. Like I like to leave audio messages on the apps that will let you do that. And I think that really personalizes it.
I love audio messages. I, I I, I came in real hot when Hinge added audio prompts, I was like, this has got to change dating forever. And it hasn’t.
However, the people that use it,
find
it really useful. And I do think I tend to be ahead of the curve. So things that I say like, well, this is going to happen. I’m usually pretty good,
but
the pandemic totally screwed my timeline, so I think you’re on the right track, Heather, and audio is, it’s so much, it’s so informative to be able to hear someone’s voice and hear their cadence, hear what they, they, We can talk about authentically to, to kind of bring someone off of the screen and into the real world.
I’m still a big fan of phone calls. I think phone calls are going to come back. They got replaced by video calls. I’m still bullish on video dating too. Okay. I think that the pandemic, it was too much, too much, too soon because we went from not doing that at all to that was all we were doing to like, now I’m sick of it.
So there’s somewhere in between and that is audio, like voice memos and also, um, phone calls where you can have real time synchronous communication, but there’s a step between we’ve matched and. We’re in the real world, but you know, I’ve been seeing people Ghosting further down the line too than I ever I used to only see it, you know dates one or two Okay, I’m hearing from people like I was dating this person for two months and suddenly they like Blocked me and fell off the face of the earth.
Yeah Wow Yeah, and I think that’s because we have all sustained so much uncertainty over the last four years. That makes sense. I can’t believe it’s been four years. Oh my god. I know.
It feels like, sometimes I like forget that I lived through the pandemic. Yeah. We’re
still living there. I mean like my daughter has COVID right now.
That’s true.
Yeah. I’m
like we still doing this?
Yeah, I know.
I thought, I thought it was over. It’s not over. Um, but again, uncertainty. Like, I had a whole thing planned for my morning that didn’t happen because there’s just this constant uncertainty that we have to endure. And that’s not stopping anytime soon.
That’s the new normal. So how do we regain certainty in our lives? Because we can’t control or predict what other people are going to do. Right. Right.
And I think it’s like We can
stack the deck in our favor and take care of ourselves.
100%. And also I think learn to deal with uncertainty because we’re never going to have 100 percent certainty.
I know it’s so hard though.
I feel the same way. I have, I have a part that feels the same way. That’s kind of like, part of me thinks it’s very existential too. You know, just like, I don’t know, I don’t want to get super, super deep, but I feel like it’s happening. Uh, where it’s like, you know, death, I think we all have death anxiety. We don’t know what’s happening.
We don’t know like kind of why we’re on the planet. And I think some of that like real existential stuff is really hard to face. So then we kind of like channel it into like the more concrete things like dating and relationships.
Oh girl, that was
deep.
I couldn’t
help it, it just happened. I like it, I like it.
I’m here
for it. Yeah, it’s super existential, man. Mm hmm. And when we really think about it, like, what is more important on this planet than relationships and the people that are in our lives? That’s my thought. Right? Yeah. Um, so it makes sense that it would come up a lot here, but, just going back to the beginning of our conversation, Yeah.
when you were saying, talking about the, um, the romance. Okay, what if, I’m going to posit a really big theory, what if we swapped uncertainty and romance? This is fascinating. Like, what if those two words, because to me, I think a lot of those feelings that when people say romance. They, they’re talking about being swept off their feet.
They’re talking about the element of surprise. They’re talking about things unfolding better than they ever could have imagined. They’re talking about stepping into the fantasy. All of that is uncertainty.
Oh.
So what if we took back our power? And Renamed romance as uncertainty so that in those moments of uncertainty, we’re not like panic attack.
We’re like, right. Oh, this is actually the magic. This is the magic. Very alive. Yeah.
Did you just like invent a whole new theory
of something? Yeah. It just happened right now in real time. This is what I do. You all witnessed
it.
This is what I do. But you know, I, I just, yeah. I get questions all the time from people that are grappling with this and trying to make sense of this thing that doesn’t make sense.
Love doesn’t make sense. On paper, we make the lists because we’re trying to make it make sense. A hundred percent. We’re following the rules because we need it to make sense and know like, what is the path I’m supposed to follow?
Yeah.
And it doesn’t make sense. No. Until it makes sense.
That’s so real. I love that because you’re right, it’s like the illusion of control.
And really I think we kind of have to accept that like we just don’t really always have control over
it.
You never,
you never have control over it. So how can we reframe our relationship to uncertainty? And find that instead of the fear, my
God, people are going to be like, I thought this was a sex podcast.
We just took you on a very spiritual journey. People, um, it’s true.
It’s true. Related. And like, when you take that into sex, like that also. Can make sex a lot more thrilling if you embrace the answer. Yeah, cuz like I’m sure you get tons of questions about like I’m so tired of doing it the same way Missionaries spice it up.
Yeah need to spice it up. What are we saying when we want to spice it up? I need a little bit of uncertainty. Yeah, I don’t quite know how it’s gonna go
Yes. Oh my God. This is great. Now we can channel our uncertainty into the areas where it’s really fun. This is beautiful. Yes.
Yes. And I’m into that. And take back our, take back our power.
Yeah. Of this uncertainty.
Um, okay. I’d love to like digress and go back to something you said earlier about chemistry. I kind of feel like we need to say more about that because I’ve been kind of exploring this recently myself is like, how much. Do we want our like quote unquote romantic relationship to be like a friendship?
Like this is a friend who maybe I like having sex with as well. Um, and how much does it need to be like, Oh, there’s this like spark and chemistry and, you know, you use the word curiosity. as a replacement for chemistry. And I just thought that was really interesting. I’m like, where are we trying to like make something be in this, like other special category?
So I feel like a lot of people are just overly focused on this. Nebulous idea of chemistry. I’ve really seen in my practice and in my life that true chemistry develops over time. You can’t just know it off the bat. Sure, you can know if you have a physical response to this person. Yeah. Going back to our biology we were talking about earlier.
Like, you can be like, that person’s cute and like, I feel like I could have sex with them. Like, yeah, sure. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have long term compatibility with them. And also, if you do not feel that kind of instant spark. That doesn’t mean that you can’t grow into that spark through deepening a relationship with somebody.
So I just feel like it’s being front loaded far too much in dating, especially because there’s this feeling of like the endless swipe. And it’s like, well, I got to have the full package first date or nothing. Or like, I got to have sex with this person right now to see if we’re even going to be compatible in the future.
And I’m a big believer in also. Um, I’m a believer in a relationship growth mindset that you can grow into a deeper relationship with someone and also like a sexual growth mindset. I think most, most sexual situations can be improved if both partners are willing to show up for that. A hundred percent.
It’s my whole job. Right. But a lot of people aren’t, aren’t doing that, aren’t willing to do that exploration anymore. They’re just like, Oh, it’s got to be chemistry. Date one or no.
Like they’re looking for the ready made package. And I like what you said. If you have two people who are willing to show up, and I think that’s one of the most important qualities to look for in a partner is like, who’s going to show up and do the work for you with you.
Yeah. You’re going to face challenges.
Yeah. And while I do believe your partner. Should be your friend as well. I also think we are putting way too much pressure on our partner to be all of the things. So it’s like, yeah, well, they have to be my best friend. My best friend. Actually, my husband and I had like a little debate about this.
I was like, Oh, you’re not my best friend. I was like, Oh, You’re kind of up there, but you’re not the number one. You’re like really high on the list, but you’re not my best friend. Cause like, I already have a best friend. You don’t, I don’t need that from you. Yeah. It’s a different role. Oh, okay. I thought we were best friends.
And that’s fine. Oh my God, that’s so cute though. Like, but you’re better than my best friend. Cause you’re my partner. And I also have, by the way, I also have three best friends that I all call, you’re like, you’re my best friend. And never are they like, by the way, two of them have the same name, which is funny, but never have they been like, wait, am I your best best friend?
Or am I your, your best, less best friend? Right. Right. Am I like the third best or the second best? They’re all the best. They are all the best. And I don’t put the pressure on those relationships to also be my business partner and also my co parent and whatever. And yet, we do that to our romantic partners and we’re like, hold all this, hold my bags, hold all my bags for me.
Right? And it’s, it’s not. There used to be more
community and now it’s like we depend on one person. It’s like funneled into this like little narrow thing of trying to get one person to meet all our needs. And I don’t like it at all.
Yeah. I agree with you. It’s partially community. And I think it’s also as bullish as I am on dating apps and as much as I, I believe in the power to.
Use dating apps to expand our dating pool
and
meet with more like minded people. I also think it sometimes makes us feel like, Oh, well we get now that our pool is expanded, I can. Have one person do all the things right
because I can find the perfect
person the perfect person. I can order it up Yeah, and I don’t think we need that like and who wants to date themselves anyway, like that’s that’s not interesting Like I really earlier relationships are discovery, right?
And I love that my husband and I are extremely different, but I learn from him all the time. So what’s your
husband like? What, what made him a different story? That was, that was interesting how you framed it. It’s sort
of that unknowable thing where it’s like, I, I, I can’t really articulate what made him different, but I can say that everything that was on my list, because I did have a list, I did manifest, and you talk about in the book, I, I, was, uh, I started practicing feng shui, my friend was recently certified as a feng shui practitioner.
She was like, can I come and feng shui your house? I’m like, sure. Cool. So she had me really get clear on what, what I was building, what I was looking for and to write all those qualities down. And okay. There was nothing about height. There was nothing about income. There was not, you know, it was really about what.
This person would feel like and I think that’s what was different is that I recognized all of those qualities were were Present in him and I didn’t even realize it until after the fact I actually I had all of these little pieces of paper in what we call a helpful people box and punctuate It’s what it’s really called.
It’s this little silver box and you put, you, you kind of put your wishes in there and I totally forgot about it. And I was moving into my own apartment. I’m leaving my roommate for adulting. And I found this box and I was like, Oh, I totally forgot about this. Six months ago, I put all these little wishes in here.
I literally forgot about them, never, never even thought until that moment. And I pulled out each little piece of paper and I was like, Oh, this is, this is actually him. Oh my God. These are not peripheral qualities. These are like core to who he is. And wow. I realized that manifestation does work. Yeah.
It’s
just, it’s.
All in clarity. And that’s why I’m a big believer in feng shui. I’m not, I’m not like a don’t, don’t come to me for console or anything. Okay. I can’t help you with that. You’ve got a day job ready. But my, my friend is now very successful as a feng shui consultant. That’s so cool. Feng shui from the heart. Oh, I love that.
Go figure. She helps a lot of people with love and relationships through feng shui. But I really think that the core element of it is that clarity. It’s not just moving your stuff around. It’s getting clear on what you are manifesting and then aligning your space because also like the inputs that we take in, the people that we spend our time with, the way that our space feels, that can either support or deter us from getting the, the relationship dream that we want.
Yeah. That makes sense to me. And I mean, I say that to my clients too, and I don’t know if they always believe me, but I believe that like getting the clarity is more than 50%. Of the way they’re, you know, and I think some people are like, yeah, but nothing’s happened yet. Like nothing’s even improved. I’m like, I know, but I’m telling you, like, I’ve seen this enough in my life and in my client’s lives that like, when you really know what you want, you get it.
Yeah. Yeah. Because you then align your words and your actions and your thoughts, and it’s impossible not to get the thing if you are right, really. In alignment.
Right. And if you’re listening and you’re like, um, no, because I know what I want and I’m not getting it, then you’re probably just blocking yourselves in ways you don’t realize.
And maybe me or Damona could help you. Ain’t that the truth. Ain’t that the truth. Yeah.
Subscribe to Ask a Sex Therapist podcast. Buy F the Fairy Tale. Yes, Dates and Mates. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, but yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s a journey. We got to learn how we’re blocking ourselves and, uh, be kind to ourselves on the journey too, I think.
A hundred percent.
So if people are like, Oh my gosh, DeMona seems so cool and amazing, you know, where do I find her? How could I work with her? How can I just learn more? Where should we send them?
We can send them to the Instagram at DeMona Hoffman. OK, send them to the F the fairy tale. Which is in audiobook, e book, and hardcover, wherever you get your books.
And, of course, the Dates and Mates podcast. I do new episodes every Tuesday. We are in season 11, season equaling years. That’s
wild! You guys, before we started recording, Damona said she’s been podcasting since 2013. Isn’t that amazing?
Yeah,
you did that math real
quick, too. Yeah.
11 years. Yeah, um, I just, I love this medium. I love, I love the audio medium. And, um, that’s why I was like so excited to be able to record the audiobook version of F the Fairy Tale 2. Oh, cool. Which is actually doing very well.
I could see, I love, all my clients have like ADHD and do audiobooks.
I’m, I’m an audiobook person.
Yeah, same. I read a lot more with my ears than I do with my eyes these days. But um, but I did actually write, a lot of people were like, did you have a ghost I’m like, no, like I’m a writer. I can’t. Yeah. I read and. And I wrote and read every word of this book. And there’s just so much of all of the The 17 years that I’ve been coaching and there, there are stories of clients.
There are questions I’ve gotten on the podcast that I just really wanted to infuse people with, with hope. So
yeah. I do want, yeah. So you’re listening, check it out if you’re a single person or, you know, polyamorous or whatever. Check it out. Um, I think. It’s a different perspective. Like when I was reading it, I was like, Oh, this is different.
This is not what like all the other coaches are saying. So I think if you’re just ready for like a refresh on dating, uh, which I think all the single people that I know are, then you should check it out.
Thank you. And I’ve even heard from people in relationships that it’s helpful. My mother in law said it is now required reading for my father in law.
So, I mean, that’s kind of the best endorsement you could possibly get. Oh yeah. That’s
yeah. It’s just when a family member even like consumes any content you’ve created, you’re like, Oh wow. Thank you. Um, cause usually they know us so well that they’re like, okay, I don’t, I don’t need anymore.
No, I live in every day.
Exactly. Um, thank you so much for being here. This was really. Fun conversation. Um, and, uh, yeah, we’ll make sure to include links in the show notes so people can find you.
Bye everybody.
