Hello, everybody. I am very excited as always, but extra excited about today’s topic. Um, we have an amazing guest with us who I will introduce in a moment. Um, but this has been a long time coming. I’ve been thinking about wanting to do this topic for a long time. It’s something that people reach out to me about, and I think that people just So, uh, we’re going to get into all of it today with our guest.

So Katherine Yagel is a surrogate partner, somatic sex educator, and queer sex and relationship coach. They live in Western Massachusetts. It’s on Nanotuck and Pocomtuck, I don’t know how to say that. Pocomtuck. Thank you. Pocomtuck land. When they’re not thinking, talking, and learning about sexual healing, they spend a lot of time in the woods with their dog, practicing fiddle and making challah.

So, welcome. Catherine, thank you for being here.

Thank you. It’s so nice to be here, Heather.

Yeah, so Catherine and I know each other, so full disclosure, we have worked together, um, with a client, um, and so it’s, it’s really nice though to have this kind of official conversation and just educate you all listening, um, about surrogate partnership.

So, that’s probably my first question, Catherine, is what made you decide to pursue this? You know, it’s a kind of unconventional career path, and

Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, at the time, it felt like it was almost on a whim for me. I was, I was going through a really big transition in my life. A lot of A lot of crisis happening, um, in my life and I was, I was working at a nonprofit and I was just getting sort of burnt out on nonprofit culture and the nine to five grind, um.

I was getting in trouble. I was, I was going through a lot of trauma in my life and I was getting in trouble for crying at work. Oh my God. And I know it was like a six person non profit. Seriously. I was like a little family.

Shaming of emotions. This is, this is why we have issues. And I wasn’t the only one

either.

I wasn’t the one. Yeah. Okay. So, and I was like really wanting a, a A form of work that I could do where I could be my authentic self. Um, and around this time, as I was going through all this transition, a friend just happened to send me an article about surrogate partner therapy, because I was always sort of the like, I guess like the sex freak in my girlfriend’s would be the easiest way to say it.

I’ll just put it out there, yeah. That’s the truth. So people would always like send me things when they saw that, you know, and I was, I had never heard of it and I was just fascinated. You know, I think that’s most people’s response when they first see it because it’s such an, you know, it’s still such a niche form of therapy at this time, even though I wish it wasn’t.

Same. But most people just don’t even know it exists. So when they hear it, they’re like, that’s a thing, you know, and that was my response. And I was like, blown away and just started researching it really in depth. And, you know, a few months later, ended up on a call with the person who ran the training program that I ended up doing.

And it was a really, it was just a whirlwind. Within like six months, I had done the training and I was launching my career. And I just sort of just never looked back. It was a really, really good fit. So

that’s amazing.

That’s how I landed here.

So, Hearing you explain that also made me realize we should probably go a step back and define what is a surrogate partner?

So, well, I’ll give the brief definition of a surrogate partner and then maybe I’ll talk a little bit about how surrogate partner therapy even came to exist. I think that might be clarifying for some folks. So a surrogate partner is a functionally a practice partner for clients who want to learn relationship skills.

So A client has to be already working with a therapist to work with a surrogate partner and then they work as a triad. So, the client does hands on practice with the surrogate partner around all sorts of intimacy skills. So, that involves hands on touch practice, escalating all the way into the erotic.

Um, lots of stuff around emotional communication, practice with movement, and a lot, a lot of work around just boundaries and self regulation. So they’re doing all that hands on with their surrogate partner, and then they’re processing everything that comes up with their therapist. So it’s a triangular relationship.

And that’s what I love about it. I mean, and I remember when we first met and you were kind of explaining some of it to me and like what the process would look like. My initial reaction was just, Oh my God, everyone should have had this. Just sort of like this really like safe, like emotionally mature. Um, like, well thought out, intentional introduction to intimacy and sexuality.

Um, and I, and I do think there’s a lot of confusion, and I’m glad that you explained it the way you did, but like, it’s really not just sex.

Oh yeah, no, absolutely not.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, so many. You know, I think I’ve gotten a lot better over the years at explaining on my website what’s involved. Yeah.

talking with clients when I do the intake call to explain. Cause you know, early on I would get so many clients who are like, I just want to learn to give someone an orgasm. I want to be good in bed, you know? And it’s like, well, those are totally legitimate goals. And you know, maybe working on that with a sex worker or, you know, with a partner is great, but surrogate partner therapy is a.

very intense form of therapy. It’s perhaps one of the most intense modalities of therapy. Yeah. In my opinion, cause relationships touch on all of our attachment wounds, all of our old trauma, right? Like, you know, who do we get more activated by than our romantic partners?

100%.

And so, yeah. And so you have to be ready to go into that, right?

It’s not just like a few sessions. I get the hang of. intercourse or oral sex and I’m good to go. It’s, um, it’s a really deep, long, intensive process.

It is. And I, and I know also, um, there’s been a, we’ve had a couple other people either reach out to me and then you, or you, and then me or something. And a lot of them wind up not being a good fit, you know, and are looking for something.

Um, that’s a little bit different. So who, who would be a good fit for this more intensive process?

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a great question. Cause as you said, it’s like on one hand, everyone could benefit from so much of this work. Right. Like there’s a part of me that wishes that, you know, a bunch of what we learned was just taught in high school sex education classes.

Right. Not the touch parts, but like. Learning to self regulate, learning to name boundaries, learning to receive a no without, like, taking it as a personal rejection. Love that one. Right? There’s so many skills that are, like, just the one on one in surrogate partner therapy that I think we’d all benefit from.

But, you know, I think because the therapy is so intense, Most of my clients are folks who tend to be sort of at the end of their rope with like having tried to form romantic relationships or tried to engage in sexual intimacy and haven’t been able to. They have barriers to that. Um, and so this is sort of their last resort of, I really, really want to figure this part of myself out and I’m willing to commit to, you know, a year or two year long journey to learn the skills to do that.

Um, so, you know, I mean, there are all sorts of different motivations that bring clients to the work. You know, I think, so I’ll go back to the history a little bit. So, um, surrogate partner therapy was developed by Masters and Johnson who are sort of like famous therapists. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In the 60s and 70s, as they were doing all this sex therapy research, they basically discovered that, you know, they would have, they had all these clients who had.

You know, sort of explicit sexual dysfunction, like erectile dysfunction or vaginismus, they, you know, like they couldn’t have intercourse, they couldn’t reach orgasm. And so they, they were finding that talk therapy could only do so much. And even like coaching their, these like coupled clients through, um, exercises and approaches could only do so much.

Uh, they were also getting contacted by a lot of single clients who didn’t have a partner to practice the skills with. So they were like, why don’t we start training surrogate partners? to help clients learn these skills hands on and will oversee the, the, the arrangement, not in session. The therapist is not present with the surrogate partner in the client session.

I’ve had clients ask that before. Um, but that, you know, overseeing the process and making sure it’s moving at a safe pace and making sure that the client’s able to process anything that’s coming up. So yeah. And then, so over the decades, it really expanded, right? I’d say, The number of client, the percent of clients I have who are here for physical sexual dysfunction, um, is my, is a very small ratio of my caseload these days.

It’s much more so, I mean, and this is in part because my passion, and like my trauma history that led me to this work, um, is really around working with clients with trauma. Um, whether that’s like abuse or neglect histories, or they experienced a single incident of sexual trauma, or Um, or they might not even know what the barrier is, but they, they freeze or they shut down when confronted with the potential for physical intimacy.

So, um, yeah, that, so, you know, these days I work with clients, you know, I work with lots of clients who are either like new to coming out as queer and discovering that for the first time or who’ve just never had a relationship and just want to learn those skills hands on. Um,

that part, that part makes sense to me.

And I think like what I learned through our work together is that. It’s really a full on relationship, you know, and it’s all the areas of a relationship that you’re doing with your clients and, you know, and I think you explained that well, uh, when we work together, whereas like when I’m working with clients, I might self disclose sometimes when I think it’s helpful or relevant, but I’m not bringing it up.

I’m not sure I’m going to be able to get into all areas of myself and my attachment issues or my whatever sexual hang ups into, um, into the work. But I think like what you said about you getting to be like your full authentic self, um, is so awesome. And I think really makes for such a whole experience for your clients.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it, you know, it’s, it’s fulfilling and beautiful and extremely challenging because of all that, right? And that’s why the therapist is so necessary. It’s because, you know, if I, if I’m doing what a therapist, like you, as you named, should be doing, of like, Thoughtfully containing their own stuff and only disclosing when it’s really beneficial to the client.

Right. If I was only doing that, then the client wouldn’t be getting the true partnership experience of like seeing what happens when their stuff comes up against someone else’s stuff. Or like, what is it like if I come in, I’m in a bad mood. How does that affect our intimacy? Right. You know, these are the parts, partnership.

This is what it means to navigate a relationship. So, so yeah, so I do have to be authentic, but I also have to be just really self attuned, like monitoring my own regulation and, um, noticing and also attuned to the client all the time. Right. And so. The therapist is such an essential support in that because, you know, what if I get triggered?

Right.

What if, what if I’m having counter transference? Like what if I, my own trauma history is coming up in the way that I’m viewing a client, right? That’s, that’s, then my call with the therapist after the session is the opportunity to Check in about that, you know, I’m noticing this coming up for myself or I’ve even had therapists say, this sounds like it might be some of your stuff is coming up with the client, you know, and we gotta,

I mean, I never experienced that with you, but yes, you are a human.

Yes. Well, also the client we shared was, you know. Not hitting on my, not hitting on my personal wounds in a way that some, some of my clients have.

And I mean, and just so people know, so like basically every time, you know, I would have a session and then Catherine would have a session with our shared client, we would also have a check in with each other separately without the client.

Um, just, you know, like a 15 minute call or something, but it’s a very like. Um, parallel process and it’s a very like, um, synced up process. So I really do think it’s like a cool, special, unique thing for people who get to do it. Um,

yeah. So the talking with a therapist is really one of my favorite parts of my work.

I mean, obviously the one on one work with clients is just the most deeply rich and rewarding. Yeah. That’s what brought me to the work, but it’s been an unexpected delight. Getting to brainstorm and collaborate with therapists and, you know, therapists are often working sort of in their own silo as well.

Mm-hmm . So it can just be like a really joyful thing that we both get to, like be a team to support the client. Yeah. I find it really fulfilling. Um, and often, you know, I just, I learn so much from the therapists I work with, and most of the time the clients that I’m seeing have been working with their therapist for quite a while before I start working with them.

Okay. And so I get, you know, the therapist is often. The source through which I learned a lot about the client and how to hold them, how to be a support to

them. Yeah. It is, it is huge. Um, What are some of the like myths and misconceptions you think that are out there about um, surrogate partner therapy?

So many.

I mean, you named one right off the bat, right? That it’s just about sex. Right. Even the fact that like the media still calls us sex surrogates all the time. It’s such a classic example of that, right? Which mystifies me. Um, yeah, I think that’s a really common myth and misconception. Um, You know, I think the idea that it, you know, it’s easy.

Oh, you know, here’s a really common misconception. I notice in my clients all the time is that you got to just like rip the bandaid off. You got to like dive in head first to the work, get to the hard stuff as fast as you can so that you can like get the healing work done.

Okay.

Um, and surrogate partner therapy and my other, the other modality, I’m trained in somatic sex education.

Um, Are really rooted in this idea of like starting with what feels good, what works and what’s safe and then slowly expanding into what’s scarier rather than like diving into the deep end. Yeah. Um, Betty Martin, who’s a super famous sex educator and the creator of the wheel of consent, um, talks about letting yourself be pulled.

rather than pushing yourself. I love that. I

use that with clients. I didn’t even know that it came from her.

Maybe you came up with it too.

I came up with it separately. Totally,

that happens all the time. Um, so yeah, I like to use the metaphor with my clients of Um, a swimming pool. You know, I think in old days it used to be really, really common to teach kids to swim by just like throwing them into the deep end of the pool.

Oh yeah. And it’s like, sink or swim, see what happens, right? Good luck, kid. Well, like, yeah, totally. Best case scenario, the kid learns to swim and had a slightly Terrifying event happened to them, but the worst case scenario is they’re like forever terrified of water, right? You know, that was like super traumatic.

And I think the exact same thing can happen if we try to rush head first into the hardest parts of the work. Um, so I invite my clients rather than like diving into the deep end, why don’t we, on the first session, just like dip our toes in the water and see how the temperature feels. And if it feels okay, then the next session we’ll wait a little bit in and Part about waiting is that anytime something’s overwhelming or you accidentally get triggered you just wait back out

Love that

or as if you’re in the deep end.

You’re just like Yeah, you know that’s something I’ve noticed and I don’t think that’s just a myth about surrogate partner therapy I think that’s a common misconception about therapy and healing

And I take a similar approach of like, yeah, let’s not dive into the most difficult aspect of this without the proper supports and confidence in place.

Like I, it just doesn’t make sense. And I guess probably because we’ve been doing this work for a while, we know that, but yeah, especially if someone’s newer to it, it’s like, And I was struck by that when you outlined the process. It’s like, first, we’re going to help the client get in tune with their own body, you know, and then we’re going to help them kind of notice how to communicate that.

And then we’re going to do the boundaries work and then we’re going to have them notice their own body while also noticing my body. And it’s like, okay, this is amazing. And by the end of the, I feel like they should have like a master’s degree in sex or something.

I do often feel like my clients sort of.

Go out into the world almost as their own surrogate partners. Not that they’re like doing healing work on their partners, but they often have this skill set that we’re so not taught in our culture. So they get to go in a way, be an educator themselves for their future. I

think so too. And I think that’s so cool.

Um, and that makes me want to ask you like, what do you think that we’re sort of missing is a culture? Like, where are we just like? Off the mark. Oh my god, where do I start Heather? Where? Don’t get me going! This could be a whole podcast series.

Seriously? You want to like schedule the next week’s one? Um, okay.

Well, I mean, for starters, you know, I think, I mean, we, whatever perspective you have on. The structure of our society and economy. I think we can all agree that the way our, our world is structured, we have to often do things that we don’t want to do, right? Like we have to work even when we don’t, even on grumpy days when we don’t want it, because we have to have income to survive.

I have to go to the grocery store. I have ADHD and that’s like unbelievably overstimulating for me. I hate going to the grocery store, but I have to get food, right? There’s all these things we We’re basically coerced to do just to survive, right? And so, you know, I think so many of my clients come in and they just, they don’t even know how to find what feels pleasurable or what feels safe because they’re so used to being activated.

Yes. It’s like

the absolute

first step is like, you know, I use the concept of the green zone, yellow zone, and red zone, which is a window of tolerance concept. What does it feel like when you’re activated? How do you notice that? Are you, you know, what does it feel like when you’re like anxious, hypervigilant?

What does it feel like when you’re dissociated? And then what, how do I get into a safe and present and engaged place? What does it feel like to actually be in the green for me? You know, how do I feel that in my body and notice that that’s where I’m at in my mind? Um, So I think that’s a skill set we’re like severely under resourced in in our culture that I often spend the first few months working on with clients.

Which again

is great for sex, but also its own separate thing, too.

Totally. Everyone can benefit from that. I could benefit from that. Regardless of whether you’re allosexual or asexual. Totally. I know. I just. Practicing this with my clients has helped me so much. So it’s

really, I mean, so it really sounds like it’s like nervous system regulation is basically what you’re saying.

Right.

A hundred percent. Which has become

a really hot topic. Um, I would actually love for you to say more about that. Like if someone listening knows like, you know what, yeah, I’m probably in like fight or flight a lot. Um, I know my stress is kind of like too high chronically. It’s, it feels hard to calm myself down.

Like where do they even start?

Oh, man, you know, it’s really tough. So, you know, one thing I have to talk about with my clients is like, you might not have the choice to stay in the green zone all the time in the real world because we have to do all these things to function and survive. So these sessions, our sessions might be unique in your life in terms of providing a space to be in the green zone.

So I think for starters. Just carving out a space where you do get to be in the green zone, even if it’s just like an hour at the end of your work day where you come home and you like turn your phone off or something

and

whatever your thing is that helps you get green and it helps you feel pleasure and find safety.

For me, that’s baths. I always take like a hot bath or I turn on my favorite playlist. Um. But yeah, you know, I mean, I think it’s different for everyone and, you know, we live in this time where doom scrolling and like binge binge watching TV is so There’s so much shade around it people Even the term doom scrolling is like comes with judgment Yeah, but sometimes like because we’ve been so on and go go go all day We need that like shut down turn off zone out.

Yeah To find regulation. So when I’m working with clients who are just consistently in the orange or red, um, throughout their lives, the first thing we’ll talk about is like. Do whatever it is that you need to get in the green at the end of your day. You can like scroll Instagram for a half hour. You can like play video games.

You know, some people, it is going to be like the things that we think of as healthier,

right.

Going on a walk or doing yoga or journaling, but that’s not always the hack for everyone.

It’s not. And I appreciate you saying that. And, you know, in my experience, if I’m really activated, if I’m just like revved up, you know, like eight, nine, 10 out of 10 with my nervous system, I sometimes need several steps to get down to like apps, like actually relaxed.

And one of them is often scrolling on my phone. So like I was at Podfest recently in Orlando and there’s like 2, 000 people there, over stimulating, had a roommate, you know, did what I, did what I could to like take moments for myself, you know, and I was pretty good about that. But, um, afterwards I got myself like a nice hotel room.

I kind of did like a little road trip around Florida after that. It was great. And, um, but the first hour in the hotel room, Instead of like going outside or just like breathing or reading my book, I was like, I kind of need to just zone out on my phone. And I, and I did, I spent about an hour doing that.

And then that brought me down enough to be like. Okay, now I’m going to like go look at the beach and the water and like have a nice meal with my book and really decompress further. But I couldn’t have done that right away.

I love that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s so different for everyone what works.

Like for me, Anger is, you know, the, like the red zone of the hyper arousal side of the, the window of tolerance is my, that’s my default activation because that’s what was going on in my childhood home growing up was a lot of like violent rage. And, um, so that’s what I learned. Right. And so I, it took, it’s taken me years to figure out, okay, when I’m really revved up.

Cardio is pretty much the only thing that’s going to get me consistently, like, I need to run. I often like, I’ll like run, I turn on my like, rage playlist, I’m like punching the air as I’m running, you know. It’s like Rocky. Or a really hard hike. That’s me. Um, and then once I’ve let that out, then I can do more like soothing activities.

Like just being in nature, like taking a bath, reading, cuddling my dog.

Yeah, animals are also amazing.

Ugh,

critical, critical to my

regulations.

I believe all animals are emotional support animals. So, uh, I don’t know if I should be saying this on my podcast, but any time my clients would be like, you know, hey, can I have a letter to make?

I’m like, absolutely, no questions asked. It’s true, they are, they are. Yeah, I think so. So, um, Okay, so I have another question for you. Especially in the

COVID era.

Oh, absolutely. Right? That’s why there’s like no animals left at the shelters.

Totally. Like, I’m stuck in my house. Let me cuddle

this creature.

Yeah, there’s amazing research on that. I know there’s been some like research with inmates. So, yeah, so like very good research. So anyways, if you don’t have a pet, get a pet. If you needed permission to scroll on your phone for an hour, you have it now. Um, so hopefully, you know, a few more takeaways on that, but, um, okay.

So my question though, is. Like, how do you do this work? Because I would think, like, I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with everybody. Um, you know, I’m not going to be attracted to everybody. Um, so how do you approach that? And, and kind of like, what makes you uniquely suited for that

work? Oh, that’s a great question.

And I guess I just want to upfront say, like, I think every surrogate partner is going to have a different answer to this question. So I definitely am not speaking for the entire community when I answer this. Yeah. Noted. Um. Well, so for me, I will say that I am, okay, I’m not attracted to everyone, but I think I am attracted to a much wider range of people than the average person might be, or much more like open to in terms of attraction.

Um, I am certainly not super attracted to every single one of my clients, although I’ve had a handful of clients that I’m super attracted to. Yeah, you’re like, oh, this is nice. This is nice. It’s kind of fun. Um, but. What I have found over the years of doing this work is that if I’m actively turned off or repulsed by a client, that is almost always a signal that that client is in some way not expressing their authentic self.

Yeah, there’s always something there that actually needs to be dug under and worked through. Um, but that’s usually like a, a cue.

That’s like not an answer I was expecting. So it sounds like you’re attracted to authenticity.

Yeah. I think that is the case for the most part. Um, but yeah, I mean, there, I’ve never had a, I’ve never had a client come to me who I immediately was like, there’s something about this client that I know is a, you know, Like I’m so unattracted to them.

I couldn’t work with them. Okay. I have had clients who have come to me in ways where they’re just like immediately crossing boundaries. I said, and like not respecting what I’ve stated that that’s a clear no for me, but I’ve never like said no to a client cause I wasn’t attracted to them. Um, yeah. So I think, you know, I, I think it does take a certain type of certain open minded type of person or someone who’s, um, I mean, I will say, like, almost every surrogate partner I know is some form of non monogamous, right?

Most of us are poly. Um, I think that might not be true across the board, but I think that’s true of most of us. But I do know surrogate partners who struggle with the question of, like, You know, I’m never going to be attracted to this client. So how do I, how do we make it as authentic of a relationship as possible?

Um, and that isn’t something I’ve struggled with quite as much. Um, but yeah, it’s certainly like what makes this work unique. And when, you know, I think that’s every surrogate partner, I know that’s like been a part of their realization process of wanting to do this work is like. Oh, I could do that. That is something I’m capable of doing is, and so, you know, that is a good indicator that you might be a good fit.

Yeah. I think that part is awesome. And what about the relationship side of it? Like the not sexual part, but just like, is this somebody like I can get along with or, you know?

Yeah. So again, for me, usually the only Prohibitive thing to working with a client or getting along with a client is if they continue to like repeatedly cross my boundaries.

Got it. Okay. And like not. Listen and not like, be able to internalize how consent works. Okay. Which is such a, such a foundational part of the work. It really,

really is .

Um, but yeah, I’ve worked, I mean, you know, as you know, I’m, I’m a lefty. Yeah. And I have worked with clients all across the political spectrum.

Oh, that’s cool. I’ve, with clients of all age. I mean, I, you know, I’m in my thirties. I started this work in my late twenties. I have worked with clients as young as 21 and as old as 73, I think. Wow. Um, I’ve worked with clients of every race. I’ve worked with clients of so many different nationalities. So cool.

Um, and every gender. Well, probably not every gender. Right.

Many genders. Yeah. Um, that, that is so cool and interesting. So then I’m wondering, like, how has it changed you doing this work?

Oh my God. So many ways. So many ways. So, I mean, I think the critical, the most significant shift. Came several years into the work when I was doing my somatic sex education training.

Mm-hmm . Which I actually, that’s often where I recommend folks start. If you don’t have any background in this field and want to get started, is that, that course I think is a really good introduction. Okay. We

can link to that.

Yeah, um, it’s not perfect. I have plenty of critiques of that program. None of them are.

No, they sure aren’t. Yeah. Um, but I do think it does a good job sort of introducing the theory and ethics of, um, the work, which is so important. And I’d already been a surrogate partner for, yeah, three or four years. And, um, as I mentioned at the beginning, right, part of what drew me to this work was being sort of a slut and being like, Oh, I’m so, sex is my thing, you know?

And I was doing this, I was deep, deep into the somatic sex education training in the unit. I was, yeah, in the, in a module where you have to do a lot of self reflection and I had sort of a realization, um, a very hard and challenging realization that My own sexual trauma and what was happening in my household as a kid was absolutely the root of why I ended up on this path.

Um, and that I actually had to heal my own sexual trauma through doing this. And I, you know, to some degree, I’ve been doing that for years, even before I became a surrogate partner. But there was a bit of a, a humbling moment there when I was like. Wow, I wonder if I have had unethical moments with my clients because I didn’t know what was going on with me or ways that I was triggered or I hadn’t fully done my own healing, which have we ever fully done our own?

I mean, it’s like, yeah, but yeah, I, I think through doing this work, I have learned. So much about my own trauma and my own healing and really done a massive transformation, a huge amount of work on myself when it comes to regulating my nervous system, how I engage in conflict, um, staying regulated, like the entire way I’ve engaged in relationships and sex has shifted.

Um, has almost done a one 80 really started. Yeah. I like, I mean, Yeah, I used to, you know, a little embarrassing, but I, in my, probably until I was about 30, I had never been on a first date that didn’t end in sex.

Wow.

Yeah, I was like really fast for

sex. Okay.

Um, and I like couldn’t fathom why you wouldn’t be.

Right.

And I think, and not to shame anyone, I know I’ve heard

that. Yeah. I

have lots of friends who like that works for them is totally healthy and they’re like regulated and grounded and they can have sex on a first date and it’s no problem. Yeah. But for me, I discovered that actually I was functionally using sex as a drug.

It helped me get to ecstatic states in a really immediate way. I was overriding. all the signals in my body that were saying, stop, we’re freaking out. This is scary. Be careful. Yeah. To get to this like positive, good feeling. Um, and so for like four or five years, I was functionally celibate.

Wow. Took

a huge step back from dating.

Um, and it felt great. Oh my God, it was amazing. Um, the first few years it was tough. I was like, almost like, why am I so broken? Why can’t I do the things everyone else does? And then there was this profound self acceptance that came where I was like, if I’m ace, if I’m asexual and that’s where I need to be forever, then that’s great.

You know, um, and I actually have come to consider myself somewhere on the ace spectrum. I don’t, I’m definitely not part ace or sex repulsed, but. Um, I, that’s a, that’s a part of me and yeah, nowadays my sexual relationships move much more slowly. I usually take months and months to have sex with a new partner

nowadays.

Okay. God, that is like a fascinating journey and transformation. Like you said, it really does sound like a 180.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s really been profound for me. And you know, I think that’s, it’s certainly. Not the case for everyone who comes into this field, but I, and that’s, I’m far from the only person who’s had that experience.

I’ve talked to so many people who at some point in their learning around this stuff have to just take a really big step back from sex and relationships and sort of reconfigure how they do it. Yeah.

I mean, and so you were able to do that while still working with your clients though?

I mean, in fact, working with my clients was a big part of what allowed me to do that because.

The surrogate partner therapy relationship is so structured and slow, right? We are never starting any physical activity before we’ve both really checked in with ourselves and made sure that’s like a true yes, deep inside me, like there’s no part of me that is scared of that or resistant to that or doing it because I feel pressured to do it.

Right? So actually it was through my surrogate partner therapy relationships that I think I really learned the skills to do it the way I want. feel safe doing it. It

sounds like so healthy. And I think just like listening to I’m thinking of how many people have made comments to me over the years of like, well, I’m just going to have sex early, like get out of the way.

So it doesn’t become like a weird

thing, you know? Or

like, Oh, I’m having lots of sex and I’m worrying like, is this too much? Or, you know, I’m feeling guilty. And, and so I think it’s, I think it’s lovely to hear your experience that it’s not, It’s not about, oh this is bad, or this is like slutty in a bad way, or this is guilt or shame, it’s more just like really honoring what feels healthy and safe to you.

Totally. And true.

Yeah, and don’t get me wrong, I still identify as a huge slut. Like, I go to sex parties, I like, I’m constantly making raunchy jokes with all my friends and loved ones. Like, yeah, but. You know, it’s just slutty in a slower, more conscientious way. How does that work? Explain more

about that to me.

I mean, you know, like I definitely have no desire to be monogamous. I’m never like just one sexual partner. A lot of my close friendships have been sexual in the past or are sexual or like flow in and out of that place. Um, You know, I don’t often have like one night stands or sort of one off hookups anymore, but there are certainly times that I enter into that space.

That’s why I actually don’t identify as demisexual, which I think is probably the place most folks would put me on the spectrum, but cause like sometimes I’m down to do like a one time thing, like a sex party, like that’s, that’s a fun thing for me when I’m traveling and I get that like spark of like, I’m just open to the world, you know, sometimes that happens for me.

So

I, I get that. I’ve talked about vacation Heather on the show and she’s just a great time.

I can, I can see. Yeah, that checks out. Thank

you. Um, but yeah, I, I don’t know. I love that combination that you’re describing of like being able to be really present and slow and intentional. And you know, I’ve also had that experience where, um, you know, I’ve been on a date early on and it seems quick, but I’ve like really checked in with myself and my body and it’s been a clear, yes.

Um, And it’s kind of like, okay, that’s great, you know, and it was actually very cool. I remember like a certain experience where the other person was like, I love that you’re doing that. I was like, oh my God, that makes it like more of a pass.

Doing that pause to check in with yourself. Oh, I love that. You like actually like took a moment on the date.

I was like, Oh, that’s beautiful.

Can’t

we all model that,

you know, well, hopefully someone listening will get something

truly. I mean, that, that right there is like, if, if, if a client I worked with, that was the only thing they took away. I would pat myself on the back, right. If they like pause before they decide that’s such a skill and so hard to do in the moment when, when you’re feeling horny and there’s that motivation and someone’s expecting that of you.

And, you know, I think for me it kind of came from Um, having experiences where maybe I had sex and then regretted it later and like really reflecting on did I kind of bulldoze through a signal that was there? Um, I know I have a part of me that is a bulldozer, you know? So it was kind of just making sure that it’s like that bulldozer part wasn’t running the show and I was like truly honoring what was there.

And then I think that really did help me not have regret after sex or feel like I had. Um, kind of harm myself in some way.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I have been there. I bet many, many of us have been there.

But like, what would culture be like if everybody was like checking in with their body? And like,

what should I like truly can’t even imagine.

I mean, is it even possible in this world? Yes, it is. I mean, I think We’re gonna do it. Oh, I love your idealism. You know what? I need to internalize some of that. Yeah, I mean, it would be such a profound shift if we were all right. I mean, you know, so there’s so much of what I do, especially as you named in the early stage and like the foundational stage of surrogate partner therapy.

The first stage is that self regulation is checking it. Then the next piece is, as you mentioned. Staying attuned to yourself while bringing your partner’s desires and requests back in, right? And that part, you know, that’s a whole other question for how our culture would shift. Yeah. It is like, can we receive someone else’s boundaries with respect?

And like, you know, I mean. How, how, how often do I hear or see in the world someone like calls in sick and then their boss gives them a bunch of shit for it or guilts them or someone got a letter calling in sick too many times. Like that’s my physical body’s boundary. Like I am ill. I cannot come in and hear someone is like, shame on you for having a boundary.

Absolutely. And even, um, You know, I see this on, there’s, there’s so many issues where to begin, but, um, I was watching some show and the kid was like, can I go to the bathroom? And the teacher was like, no. And I was

like, sure, maybe

kids lie sometimes,

but like, what are we teaching people? We’re starting from that place.

I know.

Classrooms, I feel like are such a potential site of relearning consent and boundaries. There’s one of this video I watched, it was probably like a decade ago that this video went viral. Where a teacher had like a poster outside her. Um, like classroom door that had options for what kind of greeting the kids wanted to do with the teacher when they came in.

So they would like line up outside the classroom door and then the teacher would stand there and the kid would point at which one they want to do. It would be, you know, so you could get a high five, you could get a hug, you could get a handshake, you could just say hi, or you could get nothing, I think was what the options were.

Okay. And. They would choose each one and they would get it. And I was like, what a beautiful, I like, remember crying when I saw that video. It’s like, imagine if we were all taught that we have that autonomy over our bodies, you know, it’s not like, can I go to the bathroom? No, it’s like, what’s actually best for you in this moment?

What an empowering experience.

That’s yeah, that is very cool. And you’re right. I mean, sometimes, uh, you know, I have friends with younger kids and I hear about like social, emotional learning that they’re doing. Definitely not all of the schools, but some sometimes I’m hearing about this and I’m like, wow, like, you know, um, and I recently visited my brother and his kids and, you know, of course I’m going to be like the aunt who teaches consent to the two year

old.

Which they’re good about too, but it’s, I’m like, okay, ask first, you know, um, yeah. So it’s, it’s pretty funny, but, uh, but yeah, it is important to learn that. And I do just think like, what if people gave themselves permission to slow things down when they were being sexual with someone or to do that pause and check in with their own body, um, and to communicate that.

And it, to me, it’s just like, I get excited about the possibilities, like the possibilities of co creating basically, and like when people are being so authentic, um, and I love that you said you were kind of like attracted to authenticity basically. I think a lot of people are, you know? It’s like, what if we changed the script and it was like, this is going to make me more attractive.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, studies have shown again and again, confidence is the most attractive feature, potential partner. Right. And, you know, I think so a lot of us, I think there’s often this takeaway of like, I’ve got to put on this mask of confidence, you know, I gotta like act confident, which, you know, there’s value.

Don’t get me wrong. There’s value to like, fake it till you make it, you know, for sure. But what I have discovered is like most supportive to my clients most of the time, and definitely for myself as well, is like, how do I find that like, Most true purist expression of myself and like bring that out and that’s where you find like true genuine confidence from is when I like really feel empowered and joyful expressing my, my like most real internal self.

Yeah. And I want to tell people, like, it might take awhile to find that, you know, there might be sort of layers of like masking that you’ve done. And, you know, I talk about parts a lot. there might be different parts that are kind of running the show instead of. Yeah. I

mean, I view it as a, as a life journey in a way is to like, it

is

peel off all the additional layers of BS.

Yeah. Down to the, the real essence.

Right. And I mean, Yeah, it’s cool hearing your journey and even reflecting on mine. It’s like we’ve clearly worked through some things, you know, and I don’t think either of us is close to done, you know,

which I think can sound so overwhelming for folks when they’re just starting, maybe thinking about starting doing the healing work.

But what I’ve found is there’s actually a lot of relief to that.

Yeah.

So it’s like, I don’t have to get it all done. I’m never going to be perfect. Perfect is actually, a really toxic concept, right? One of the principles of white supremacy from that famous essay.

It is! And also, it’s the enemy of intimacy.

Like, to me, like, intimacy is a little messy. Like, if we were robots, there would be no intimacy.

Ugh, I know. Like, over hygienized. Is that a word? The very hygienic, like, Perfect crisp version of sex. Yeah.

Like, ew, that doesn’t sound fun.

It’s literally fluid. I think when you say

it that way, like it’s literally fluid, you know, it’s like, yeah, like realize that take it in.

It’s not going to be this like color by number, like follow steps one, two, and three in order type of thing. Um, so the sooner we let go of that, I think the more fun we’re going to have, and the more sort of like surprise and delight and connection and creation.

Absolutely. Yeah. I cannot tell you how many clients I come in, come in and that I, so much of what we’re doing is sort of deconstructing the like.

Script or like baseball bases model of sex, right? That’s what I remember that when I was a kid, that was what we were like, I’m going to get a second base. So it’s like, that’s, you know, especially now that I’ve been queer, I went out as queer for so many years. It’s like that, you know, things that I used to think of as like four plates, like that’s just sex, like whatever works for you.

Right. You know, I mean, how many people’s. Confidence and sex lives are just destroyed by the pressure to have PNV sex. So they don’t even want that, right? Like, so, so, so many women can’t even orgasm from PNV sex. Your men are thinking that they have to give that to their partner. So most of the time, it’d be great to just get some fingering and some oral sex, you know?

Bring a toy in there, yeah.

Totally, uh, oh my god, and how many men feel insecure about their partners having toys? How many women feel insecure about their partners watching porn? Like these could all be additions to sex, not, you know, not reducing the joy of it. So yeah, you know, moving away from this idea of like, here’s the structured sex way to do sex, and like, what feels good in my body in this moment?

There’s a flow to I? How do I be with myself and be with my partner and follow? It feels good.

Yeah. Oh my God. I love it. Okay. So on that amazing note, um, if people are kind of like, okay, I’m so fascinated about this surrogate partner stuff, or like Catherine just seems like an awesome human. How do they find you?

Okay. I mean, there’s my website, KatherineYagel. com. We will link to this. H H E. Great. Perfect. I don’t have to spell

it.

Um, I’m on social media. I’m on Instagram. I also sort, I’m on Facebook. Like, you could find me there, but I rarely check it. Okay. Um, but yeah, I mean, probably email is the best way to contact me and you can do that through my website.

Okay.

Um. Yeah, I’m involved with the surrogate partner collective, probably going to be taking a more structured role there soon. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it for a while. Um, so I do presentations for their training sometimes. Um, I love. Doing presentations for classes of therapists. So that’s the way you might see me sometimes.

All right. Well, Catherine is awesome. So please do reach out to them and, uh, and maybe you’ll work with both of us then. Um, yeah, it’s fun. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for being here. I just think this is such an important topic and I appreciate you just kind of giving us the real deal on it.

It was so fun.

This was a blast. It was. I’d love to do it again sometime. All right,

might be another round. Okay, everybody, thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Katherine, for being here, and we will catch you next week.

Bye.