Hey, everybody. Welcome to an amazing guest episode. Um, today we have Dr. Betty Martin here. Uh, Dr. Betty Martin has had her hands on people professionally for over 40 years first as a chiropractor. And then upon retiring from that practice, it’s a certified surrogate partner, sacred, intimate and somatic sex educator for explorations and somatic based therapy and practices informed her creation of the framework The Wheel of Consent.

Uh, so welcome Dr. Betty Martin. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Yeah. So I was very, very excited to have you on the show. Um, and I have my little list of questions and have some dog eared pages of your books and highlighted sections. So I’m excited to get into it. Um, And I want to let you know that your book made me cry by page 18.

I love hearing that.

good. And I think it’s just because, like, as someone else who’s, who’s in this work and working with people and also just a human, you know, existing in the world. I’m going to find, I’m going to find the section that made me cry. You might be surprising. I don’t know if this will make sense to you. So the part I highlighted says, many people didn’t know if it was okay to change their minds.

It does. It makes me emotional reading it now. Or make a refinement and ended up going along with something they didn’t really want. And this one turned out to be nearly universal. Yeah. So that was, that was what made me cry. And I was just, I think it was just really making me realize like, as humans, like we are really disconnected.

Yeah. from our bodies and our desires and it’s a bit heartbreaking to me and is also a big part of why I do this work. So yeah, so anyways, um, let’s start at the beginning though before we get into me crying. Um, so tell us a little bit just about the framework of, of the receiving and giving and and the will of consent, if you don’t mind.

Sure. Well, the wheel of consent is a practice and by a practice, I don’t mean like you practice and get better at it. I mean, it’s a practice like yoga or meditation or something, or basketball can be a practice. Um, that it’s practice, which means it’s something that you come back to again and again, again, and it has a fairly narrow parameters of what you do in the practice so that you leave other stuff out.

And the nature of a practice is that because. The parameters are kind of narrow. You go to depth that you wouldn’t go otherwise. So, in, you know, different kind of practices, you’re going to go different places, but in this practice, it’s a practice for two or more people. And it’s a practice in taking, receiving, and giving apart, so that you’re either giving a gift.

It’s not about you. It’s not about what you want. You still respect your boundaries, of course, but it’s about the other person. And then you take a turn to receive a gift, which means it’s all about you. You respect the other person’s limits, of course, but it’s all about you. It’s about what you want. And by taking those apart, well, for one thing, you find out what they are.

Because so many times when we’re, quote, receiving in, uh, in, in this, particularly in the sexual context, um, we’re trying to give something back at the same

Mm hmm.

You know, cause you want to keep our partner happy or we’re just, it’s just a little awkward to receive and just all about me, oh no, what would I do with that?

You know, so you’re trying to give something back at the same time. And as long as you’re trying to give something back at the same time, you can’t actually receive the gift that’s coming towards you. It just doesn’t sink, doesn’t, doesn’t sink in. And so the Wheel of Consent is a practice in taking, receiving and giving apart. That’s really all it is. And, and there’s two particular ways to do that, which we can talk about, but it’s essentially a practice in taking, receiving, giving a part. It’s a practice in taking turns.

Yeah. It was interesting, and I like you calling it a practice because, you know, as I’ve been reading, um, it reminded me of meditation in, in a lot of ways. Um. I spent 13 years being Buddhist, and so that was sort of one of the things that I connected it with, where it’s like, do you get better at meditation?

Is that what you’re trying to do? I mean, maybe, but like, that’s not the intent. It’s like the intent is to like be present and have an experience. So I love that.

Yeah. It’s said that the, the, the benefit of a practice is in doing the practice. It’s not because, well, you, then you get enlightened or some other thing, you know. It’s like the, the benefit of the practice is in the practice itself. It’s in the experience of it. And then you, you learn about yourself. You have some experiences and then you take that learning back into your life, of course, hopefully.

Um, and that’ll be up to you to decide what you, how you use it and fit it into your

okay. So it does make me curious about. Sex and how this applies to sex, and if we’ve all just been having sex wrong.

Oh, I don’t know.

Can you say a little bit about that?

Yeah, uh, I don’t recommend spending all your time in taking, receiving and giving apart. that’s not the point. And I sure wouldn’t want to live my life that way. Because there are times where no one’s giving or receiving. You’re just hanging out together and playing together. And that is what most people consider good sex, is that you’re playing together and it’s fluid and you’re doing, you know, um, and, uh, so the wheel doesn’t suggest that you should do this all the time.

That’s why it’s a practice.

That makes some sense.

But what you will find out, as if you do the practice a few times, you will find out, Oh, this is where I’m afraid to ask for what I want, or, oh, this is why it’s so hard to receive,

Yeah.

or, oh, no wonder I’m always the

Oh, interesting.

or, and the other person also feels like they’re always the giver, so what’s going on

So you could have two people that both feel like they’re always the giver?

oh yeah, that’s probably the majority of

What’s going on there?

Well, if you’re giving a gift. You by definition take what you want and put it on the shelf temporarily and then you go with what the other person wants Temporarily, so that’s what that’s what giving a gift is you take what you prefer and you put it on the shelf for a little while and Most people are many people.

I don’t know a lot of people Approach sex as if it’s their job to To To make the other person happy and so typically in heterosexual sex. It usually works like this the guy Is doing all the work and he thinks he’s doing the thing that he’s supposed to do. Cause that’s what he saw in the video and it made that other girl squirt.

So it must be the good thing to do. Right? So he’s doing the thing, thinking that he’s giving to her because in his mind, he’s giving to her, he thinks that she’s receiving.

Okay.

At the same time, she is giving access to herself. She’s giving her body because she thinks that’s what he wants. Okay. Because nobody ever asked her what she wanted and if he did he she wouldn’t know how to answer it anyway And so I guess he likes it because that’s what he’s doing So I’m just gonna shut up and go along with whatever because that’s my way of giving him So both of them are giving who’s give who’s receiving a gift in that nobody

Yeah. It just feels like so much. Um, and I see, I do see this a lot with men where like, they’re trying so hard,

so hard Yeah,

in totally the wrong way.

Yeah

Um, and it’s not landing. And sometimes, you know, the way I’ll try to frame it with them is like, you know, you’re giving a hundred percent effort and maybe on a good day, 50 percent of that is being received.

And so there’s a lot that’s like, Going unnoticed, but if you redirect your efforts, you know, then maybe 100 percent gets received. Um,

yeah,

so I try to work with

Well, that’s assuming that you’re reading

well, there needs to be communication. 100%, that’s like step one. Um, but I think as you said, a lot of people don’t know how to answer the question and that’s something I’ve run into a lot as well. Where it’s like, someone might say, okay, like, what do you want? Like, I, hey, like, I’m here, I’m willing to do whatever, like, let’s go. And, and sometimes the person being asked is like, uh,

I don’t know very often. It’s a very often the case. Yeah, that introductory chapter in the book that you were crying about. It’s about how I discovered this and working with clients that, um, and I, I’m, the, the Wheel of Consent is based on two different questions. One is, how do you want me to touch you for three minutes?

It’s called Three Minute Game. It was developed Faddis. How do you want me to touch you for three minutes? And then you, the answer, negotiate, and then you set the clock, and you do that for three minutes. And the other question is how do you want to touch me for three minutes, which is a very different

mm hmm, mm

And then you negotiate that and so you’re both happy and you set the time and do that for three minutes. Uh, and of course you can change your mind as you noted in the book.

mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm,

Um, but when I started doing this with my clients, the one of the first things I noticed was I would ask people what they want and they had no idea.

Or they’d say, Oh, gosh, I’m always the giver. I don’t know, you know, and chances are, if you ask their partner, their partner and say, yeah, I’m always the giver. Yeah.

is like, it’s beautiful in a way, we’re all wanting to give, that’s lovely, but yeah.

yeah. Just take turns,

Yeah, and then you have to acknowledge, you know, who’s being the giver and verbalize it,

Yeah. Yeah. And who is, and, and you don’t, nothing happens until you ask for what you want.

Nothing happens. Until you ask for what you

It’s so hard though, Betty.

So, that means you,

hard. Like,

it’s hard.

this, I’m, you know, part of me is like, gosh, I think I’m like way better at asserting my boundaries than the average person. And I know I’ve had moments where I’m in a sexual situation and I’m kind of like, okay, it’s not that bad, but it’s like not really working for me.

And like, should I say

Yeah, yeah, of

know, this is like maybe our first time having sex. Is that weird? I don’t want to, you know, and it’s like, All this stuff comes up

Oh,

I’m like pretty good at it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. Totally.

like, what do you think that is? Like, what is that stuff that comes up and you know, like, how do we work

Oh, gosh. Well, I think. Well, did you, when you were a little teeny kid, did you get rewarded and praised for asking for what

I did. I did highlight a section that talked about that too. Um,

You know, probably not,

was, that was so good though.

when you start, When you start verbalizing, you know, asking what you want, what do you get? Don’t be so grabby. Don’t be so selfish. Don’t, it’s not all about you. Take care of me,

you know, like, no, you can’t have that toy. No, you can’t have that candy. No, you can’t, you know, like, yeah.

yeah, yeah, yeah, and that’s in a reasonably healthy, peaceful household.

In a household that’s really troubled, you could get beat up for asking for what you want. So, you know, you’re going to learn not to ask for what you want. And if you can’t ask for what you want, eventually, you learn that it just doesn’t work to want anything at all.

Yeah.

And so you start forgetting what you want or even how

Oh, and that’s part of the heartbreaking part to me. It’s like we, we get so cut off from this really like fundamental element of like who we are and the human experience. So, yeah. Yeah.

but it’s all of us, you know. You can’t grow up, you can’t go through childhood and not have your, this is another side of it, not have your, your boundaries crossed and your limits disrespected because you have to brush your teeth.

You didn’t want to brush your teeth. You have to have your dappies changed. You have to get picked up out of oncoming traffic when you didn’t want to be and you, you know, you’re not allowed to hit your little brother. And, you know, so. It’s just things are done to us when we’re little that we don’t like, of course they are, even in the very best of

Yeah, that helps to hear how you’re framing it, where it’s like, it’s good not to get hit by oncoming traffic, you know?

yeah, yeah. And you know, your parents are, they’re, they’re making you brush your teeth because they’re taking care of you. That’s their job. But boy, you hate it. And so, you know,

okay.

and so we all learn, we all learn to go along with stuff that we don’t like, and we get very good at it. For the most

We do. And that, that scares me a little bit.

Mm

Yeah. So do you, do you feel like the practice of sort of doing that two question game of like, how do you want to be touched and how do you want to touch? I know I’m maybe not saying those perfectly, but like, does that help us start to heal that?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, because For one thing, it’s a fairly narrow Simplified

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

minutes It’s not like how do you do you want a two hour erotic cosmic massage and I was like, that’s too much but for three minutes Most people can eventually think of something they’d like to try for three minutes, and it’s with a peer, you’re with your partner or a practice buddy, you know, there’s not, you don’t have to be lovers to play it. In fact, I would encourage you to play it without including any sexual

Oh, I like that.

for, I don’t know,

Oh, wow.

or something before you include sexual options, because you’re learning that it’s okay to say no. Okay. You’re learning to set a limit. Yeah, you can feel my leg, but only up to here. Um, yes, you can play with my hair, but don’t tug on it. Um, yes, I will rub your back, but I need to move it over this way so I can be comfortable. Yes, I’ll rub your back, but only if you keep your shirt on. So you’re learning to, to notice in yourself, what am I a yes to? And what am I a, nah, or what am I a, yeah, part of it. I can do that part. I’m not, I can’t do this part. So you, you start to learn that it’s okay to say no, it’s okay to say yes, it’s okay to negotiate and gain the skills to do that. Um, and you learn how to ask and you learn that, oh wait, oh, oh wait, there is something I want. Would you like squeak, tug on my toes? You know, like I, I never thought of that, but I’d really like that.

Is that kind of weird? That’s okay honey, I’ll tug on your toes. You know, so you, you learn to trust, you have some low stakes interactions in which you learn to trust that there’s something that you want and that it matters and that it counts and that it works to ask for it. Who knew?

who knew

Who knew?

like that idea,

Um, so it’s, it’s much easier to learn and practice if you start low stakes.

Which for most people means at least some

Mm hmm.

and not, not a sexual or genital

Okay.

I mean, any touch can be sex, can be sexy, but, but if your intention is to get everybody turned on, you’re not, it’s hard to learn that way. You’re just not going to, because your habits are so strong. You’re just going to start doing the thing that could turn you on.

and Yeah. Different competing attentions. Um, yeah. So, and actually

yeah. I, I don’t know how anybody lives without the three minute game actually.

I know. And so many people have never played it. I’ve never played it.

Yeah, oh my gosh, well you

that I got your book, I will.

and uh, yeah, and um, I, you know, coming back to sex therapy, I’ve worked with um, other uh, surrogate partners and

Mm-Hmm.

and stuff, and and I, and some of my students here in Seattle are also um, sex therapy students and

Oh, cool.

in Seattle. And one of them actually just wrote a doctorate thesis on using

Oh, so cool.

in sex therapy.

Um, but I think it, what, what I’ve noticed is that wherever your stuff is about relationship, it will show up in there in some way. If it’s not saying no, that’s going to show up. If it’s assuming that you always get a yes and you can’t respect somebody else’s no, that’s going to show up. If it’s, if it’s learning how to set aside what you want temporarily, that’s going to show up.

Like it’s all going to show up in there pretty much.

Yeah. There was, um, there was another section that brought up more of my shit.

Oh, good.

a few of my things in here. So thank you for that, Betty.

that’s a good sign.

But it was like, um, the messing with our domains on page three 57 and it was like, Yeah, um, it’s like there’s a few ways we can mess with our domains.

One is to take something that belongs in our domain and try to move it into someone else’s, such as our desires. We try to get someone else to want what we are reluctant to admit that we want, and I was like, I’m guilty.

Yeah, yeah, I’ve been there.

Um, and so, yeah, it’s like, you know, the book is gently confrontational. Um, but I was like, yeah, it’s hard cause it’s hard to be vulnerable. Right. And it’s kind of like, if I can get this other person to initiate or to want me or to whatever, then I don’t have to just say, this is what I want. But then you called me out again and you said, integrity is like owning your desires.

And I was like, Oh man.

Yeah. Yeah

Yeah, so which, you know, it’s, and I also feel like it’s easier with some people than with others and each connection is

of course it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

but yeah, that’s, that’s tough work to do. Do you think the three minute game helps with that too? Okay. All right. I’m going to make all my friends play this with me now. Maybe we’ll start. I live in St. Pete, Florida. I’m like, maybe we’ll start a little like St. Pete, Florida.

You could have a little

club. led by me.

Yeah.

Yeah. And maybe you could come visit us one day.

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Um, but yeah, I think, uh, it’s cool how powerful it is. And, um, you know, St. Pete’s kind of a hippie town, uh, a little bit.

And so there’s, uh, I just met a guy who hosts cuddle parties. So I’m like, okay, cool.

Oh Yeah, yeah.

Um, and you’ve been involved with cuddle parties, haven’t you? Okay. How, tell me about that. Oh my God.

Um, gosh, ages ago, 30 years ago or 20 years ago or something. When I had my practice in a studio as a sex coach and, and a surrogate partner. I used to do these little, um, evening, um, slumber parties. And we actually would spend the night. Some of it had been pajamas and ask all the sex, sex ed slumber parties.

You ask all the sex questions you want. We put them in a hat and drew them out. It was so fun and everybody’s in pajamas and, you know, lounging about and it was so fun. And then I heard somebody talking about this thing called cuddle party. This must’ve been about 2000, 2005 maybe. And I thought, oh yeah, I didn’t, we already do that.

No, we don’t need that. And then it came across my desk again. So I looked at the website and that was in the days before everybody had a website. So they had a website. I thought, well, that’s a real deal. They have a website. And I saw that they were based in New York. And so I called them. I said, hey, let’s, let’s compare notes.

What you’re doing, what I’m doing, you know, see how it goes. And they said, well, actually we’re, we’re giving a training in a couple of weeks for facilitators to do it. And I said, oh, I’ll come up. So I went up there and I took their little weekend training and it was good. And by the end of it, I said, you know what, what you got is better than what I got.

So I’m just going to join your club. So I, I started facilitating and hosting pedal parties and I did that for years and years in my apartment. I just loved it. Um, and eventually I, I got tired of it and there’s other people around. I mean, there’s a lot of facilitators around. Uh, I served on the, the, the, um, board of it for some years, but yeah, it’s a, it’s a good organization and it’s a really good process because, um, you did like 45 minutes or an hour of a welcome circle, which is kind of like the workshop be part of the evening and you can’t come in late.

So everyone’s introducing themselves, you go over the rules of which, you know, including, um, if you’re maybe say no, if you have to ask somebody before you touch, and you know, the, as you’d expect those kind of rules. And so then you have this little workshop and everybody gains some basic skills and asking for what they want.

And then it’s free time. It’s improv. So then you have another hour and a half or two hours to just cuddle and touch and share. People do, I mean, everyone says their pajamas stay on. That’s rule number one. Pajamas stay on the entire time. It’s not a sexual event. And, um, so they’re getting back rubs and foot rubs and cuddles and head scratches.

And, you know, sometimes people kind of take a little nap, you know? Um, So, so people get an opportunity to learn some basic skills and then put them into practice. Um, it’s, it’s really great.

I love that. And I think it is good to have a practice opportunity. And that seems, that seems like something that it’s like, whether you’re a single or whether you’re in a relationship, if you’re looking to kind of like reconnect with your yes and your no, and what is your domain and what is not your domain, that it would just be a very kind of safe practice environment for that.

Yeah. It’s also really great because as you know, touch is a primary human need that is not about sex. And so we need touch that’s not about sex. And we need to be able to separate them so we can tell the difference, because most Americans, I think, conflate the two very easily. And so they think, well, if touch is happening, then sex is somewhere around here close

It does seem that way.

which either they may want or may not want, but to really separate them and experience touch that isn’t about sex.

at all is quite amazing.

I think that is a really good cultural point that you bring up that,

Yeah.

know, and I’m curious, you know, what you think it’s like in other areas of the world, but it almost,

That’s probably worse in most places.

Because it feels like more socially.

some parts of

Europe, I could see being better in some ways. I think they’re kind of cooler about sex than we are too.

Um, but yeah, it feels more socially acceptable to like pursue sex. Yeah. As opposed to pursuing affection or wanting that.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I, I think that’s really true. It’s very often less vulnerable to produce, even in your, even in a relationship. If you just want to cuddle, but you don’t know that that’s an option, then you’re going to go for sex if you can get it.

Yeah. That’s something that I, that I see a lot with the couples I work with too, where, um, there, it’s kind of like an all or nothing, know,

Yeah, that’s

yeah. Where we kind of forget about like all the in betweens and people might say like, Oh, I want to make out, but I don’t, because I feel like it’s always going to have to lead to sex.

And I’m like, Oh, that’s a bummer.

They need the three minute

I’m going to start using it 100%. So if you’re my client, you’re listening, we’ll be doing that.

Yeah

Um, I’m going to, I’m going to start my club. I’m going to go to the cuddle parties. Um, yeah, so I’ll report back to everyone in a solo episode about how all that’s going.

Yeah, great.

yeah. So can you tell us like about the wheel itself and the, the quadrants of that and kind of what those mean?

Yeah Yeah, so if you’re if you’re playing with one other person you two people and each of you are asking Two different questions that means there’s four rounds that are going to happen and in one of those rounds I’m doing what I want to you And in one of those rounds, I’m doing what you want me to do to you. And you get to see what the difference is. And in one of those rounds, you’re doing to me what I want. And in the fourth round, you’re doing to me what you want. So there’s, there’s two factors at play here. One is who’s doing, which is pretty easy to tell by looking in the window, who’s doing. And the other factor is who is it

Yeah.

And you may not be able to tell that. Mostly, I can tell it for the most part just by watching your body language, but you may not be able to tell. Um, so, so who is doing and who it’s for, those combine in, in those four ways that I mentioned. And so you have the, like the, the

Mm hmm.

of each quadrant.

Um, and you can put a link to where they

Oh, yeah. I’ll put all the links.

Um, so, yeah, the, the, the quadrants needed names, so I gave them names, and when, when I’m doing what you want, I’ve asked you, how do you want me to touch you? And you said, oh, well, you rub my back. So now I’m rubbing your back. I’m in the serve quadrant, which most people call giving.

Mm.

we’ve conflated giving and doing in our culture as well. Because if I’m doing to you, the assumption is that it’s supposed to be for

It is the assumption. I agree.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so most people call this giving. Um, so I’m asking you what, how, how do you want me to touch you? You say, will you rub my back? I’m rubbing your back.

So I’m in the serving quadrant. I’m giving to you. And you are in the accepting

Oh, okay.

and most people would call that receiving, but I’ll show you in a minute why that doesn’t work so well. So you’re getting what you want, you’re getting the touch that you want, and you get to direct it however you want.

You know, go slower here, deeper there, scratch here, you know, it’s, it’s about you. Um, or you may get tired of it and want something else, you know, and you ask for that. So that’s one dynamic. I’m doing for you you want.

It’s reminding me of the kink world a little bit. So that would be like a service top.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a service top So the other dynamic is okay. I’m asking you. How do you want to touch me?

I love that question. I think that sounds fun. Yeah.

great question and it’s as hard for people It’s really hard for people because typically, if I say, how do you want to touch me, many people will say, well, I’ll do whatever you want. It’s not, you know, I, I appreciate that, but that’s not the question. The question is, what do you want? And some people just can’t figure that out, but it’s basically.

How do you want to feel me up in a way that’s enjoyable to you?

It’s like, if my body is your

Because it’s for your pleasure. Yeah. My body is yours, baby. You know, my body is your playground. And, um, so then I ask, how do you want to touch me for three minutes? And then you say, well, let’s see, can I feel up your legs or can I, um, play with your hair or whatever it is? And now, and I say, um, yeah, you can feel my legs up to here. So I’ve set a limit. This, I’m happy to give you this part of my body, but I’m not going to give you this part of my body. So then you’re, you’re in the taking quadrant,

Yeah.

which means you’re doing what you want to me, within my boundaries. And a lot of people have a problem with that word, taking, because think it means stealing, but it’s actually not.

It’s receiving a gift. That you, it’s, you have to reach out and collect the gift and it’s a gift because my, I’m giving you this part of my body

Mm hmm.

of time. So, and that’s a real gift. Yeah. Yeah. So taking is, is receiving a gift. So you’re in taking and then I’m in allowing, I allow, I’m allowing you to do this thing that we’ve agreed on to me. And so that’s the four quadrants, serve, accept, take, and allow.

That makes sense.

yeah, and each, each quadrant will challenge you in a different way. Each quadrant will have its own sort of delight and joy, different things

Mm hmm.

them. Um, each quadrant will kind of grow a particular set of

hmm. I like that. I think, I can see how this could be applied in a lot of different ways. situations too. And it’s, it’s very like structured in a way that’s not super intimidating to people, but kind of allows them to grow and learn and step into different roles and notice what feels best and most natural and what’s sort of a growth edge. Yeah. I

yeah, and you’ll find some growth edges.

mean, I found the girl that is just reading the book. You know, so I believe you.

And you’ll also hopefully have some fun, you

Absolutely, you know, and I, I just, I just like anything that changes it up. You know, I think we have such a,

Mm hmm.

like a script, a social script of like, this is

Mm hmm.

and this is the order it goes in. And just something that’s

Yeah.

what if we just take all that away and we’re going to create this little container and just like see what happens.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly Exactly. Yeah,

so I don’t know. I’m also curious just about how you got into this work So, I mean you were just like regular old chiropractor

Mm hmm. I was a regular old chiropractor and for a while, about 30 years, um, and And then in my mid forties, uh, after divorce, I took a workshop with the body

Oh, yeah, I’ve heard of them.

for women about sexuality, which is all their workshops are about sexuality. Um, and this was in 94 or 95. That’s when you were just a little squirt.

I was like 14 15 Mm hmm. Mm

And it was just a mind blower for me. I just like, Oh, my gosh, you know, there’s all these possibilities. And what I learned that really kind of hit me hard at that point was, Oh, my eroticism belongs to me. it hit me so hard that I thought, well, who did I think it belonged to? Like, well, of course it does.

Like, what did, what was I thinking all those years? And I realized that as a girl growing up in the 1950s, I thought it belonged to everybody else. So, Uh, you know, my, my Eros was always supposed to be in response to somebody else’s desire.

that still exists in 2024.

think that’s really, yeah, I, I think that’s really true. But it, boy, it was really, it was definitely the case then.

And yeah, and um, and so I came out of it realizing that, wait a minute, this belongs to me. My body is the source here. And what is my body capable of? And how does my body work? And how are my feelings attached to it? And, you know, just lots of, um, lots of ahas there. And I just dove in there. I took other workshops with them.

I, uh, met with a, a few colleagues and girlfriends. And we explored. And it really, it became a spiritual path for me of sorts for some years. And, um, learned a lot about myself and, uh, at some point after some years, I thought I want to offer this to other people. And I had already been doing co counseling peer counseling for 30 or 40 years.

So that was the foundation of listening and being present with people. And I, so, um, I closed my chiropractic office on this little island where I live near Seattle. Moved into the city. opened up a new studio and started offering sex coaching, basically. Um, and it was interactive. We actually did things with each other.

And, and on one of those workshops during those years, I learned the three minute game, um, at, at the bioelectric workshop. And so I took it home and dusted it off and used it with my clients thinking, well, this will be a way to transition from the history taking talking part of the session. To the hands on part, and this will give me a chance to see what their comfort level is, what their skill level is just kind of.

And it did show me that and showed me much more because. It showed me that when you ask somebody what they want, they usually don’t know. Or they very often don’t know, or they have a very narrow idea of what’s possible, or they think they want to give. Or all kinds of stuff, so all these things would all these.

these, um, confusions and questions and would come up and show where people were lost or confused or you know. And so, um, that’s when I started really diving into it with clients mostly, um, because I was playing it with pretty much everybody

So interesting. I

in the door.

how did you get this business going? Like, was sex coaching even a thing then? Like, I feel like you just invented something and it happened to just

it is before it was before websites. This is before websites, so I created, I built, I um, designed a little pamphlet, three fold. Paige put it in the sex toy store and, um, uh, other like community centers and things. And I already had a, a list of people that I knew that were in the healing personal development world and, and women’s groups and stuff like that.

So I just put, I just said, Hey, this is what I’m doing. Um,

I just, I think I just love that you’re just like, I’m going to make up my own job and I’m going to do it and it’s going to work. And it did. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And there were other people doing it. We, we, um, we called ourselves Sacred Intimates, which was, that was a term that was coined again by Harry Faddis and the Body Electric folks, Sacred Intimate, meaning we’re going to be interactive and I’m going to support you and lead, guide you in whatever way seems useful and whatever way works for me and you. And. For some, for some people, uh, for some sessions, a Sacred Intimate may, it may be just talking. It may be walking to the park and having a talk. It may be, um, massage. It may be body work. It may be more interactive and more erotic. You know, there’s no licensing for it. So it’s kind of a Wild West, um, in a very good way.

And I, boy, many, many, um, sacred intimates are profound healers. Just amazing work that gets

I believe it.

Um, yeah. Yeah.

amazing. And were you ever, like, concerned for your own safety or anything?

Uh, only once out of,

But, like, going into it, you were just like, this will be fine. Amazing.

Yeah. This will be fine.

Probably because a lot of the work you had done, I bet it just, like, gave off a good vibe.

Yeah. And I, I, um, for the first couple of years, I was working very gently and slowly and, you know, we were clothed and so it was a lot of very gentle steps. Um, so I wasn’t really worried about that kind of danger. Um, yeah.

Wow. Well, it’s pretty amazing work that you’re doing. Um, you know, I feel very grateful to have come across your book. And, um, I did, I worked with a client with a surrogate partner, Catherine Eagle. I don’t know if you know them, but, um, I just interviewed them the other week for the show.

But,

Oh, cool. Mm.

was when I first heard of the wheel of consent and, um, It was just such a beautiful process. And, and when they were outlining the process, they’d be taking our mutual client through, um, I was really like, wow, like, I wish, I wish I had had an experience like that. Like, it almost reminds me of, um, like tribes or, you know, other indigenous cultures where there was like a sexual initiation sometimes, um, like a rite of passage type of thing.

And it made me think like, what if this was everyone’s,

Well, we imagine that there was. We, we like to imagine

there was not.

Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I, I wouldn’t assume that there was, but

some seems like they’re some places seemed like they had one but yeah, I just seem like it would just be safe and help people tune into their body and yeah, just made me think like I wish everyone got to have an experience like that not just

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Those who can afford it or, you know, got to the point of being 50 or 60 and having issues around sex.

Um, it’s like, Oh, okay. Um, but yeah, I, I do hope that the growth in the field continues, you know, where people, um, can go to cuddle parties and do the three minute game and

Mm hmm. Mm

partner if they want to and, um,

Yeah.

do the healing.

Yeah. I, I think that wheel of consent in the three minute game should be at the heart of sex therapy and surrogacy. Because, you need every one of those skills. You need to know the difference between what you want and what you don’t mind too much. It’s a very important

That, that is a big difference.

Huge, huge.

then I think speaking up and you mentioned in there at one point, you know, maybe the first minute you enjoy something and then you’re like, Oh, now, no, I want them to stop doing that

No.

And that can be really hard, I think, to speak up. So I do think it’s a really important skill to build and this is a really safe.

Sounding way to, you know, create that container. So, um, yeah. So if people are like, Hey, Betty, this is awesome. How do I find out more, you know, about you and your work? Um, where can they find you?

Uh, bettymartin. org, and that will link you also to the book, which is wheelofconsentbook.

Okay. Great.

You can find either of those from the other. And most of my teaching these days comes through the School of Consent at schoolofconsent. org. And again, you’ll find them, they’re interlinked. Um, and we teach, there, we have facilitators all over the world who are teaching two or three day

Oh, nice.

And we also, um, have a faculty that we’re teaching a five day professional

Okay.

So, if you are a therapist, a body worker, a sex worker. um, a

Mm hmm.

kind, uh, then we’ll, yeah, we have five day training for professionals and how to use the wheel of consent in your practice.

Amazing. Okay.

there’s YouTube. I’m all over YouTube apparently. And, uh, and there’s on, on my website, on my website and the school of consent website, there’s some place to get some free downloads of how to play the three minute game. And there’s. YouTube videos on playing a three minute

All right. We’ll make sure to link to as much of that as we can in the show notes. So people who listen regularly know I like to put lots of links in the show notes. Um,

Yeah, and my belief is that I want the wheel of consent to be Accessible to anyone so there’s eight hours of free video on the website. Just go help yourself Take you all the

That’s awesome. Thank you for that. And thank you for coming on the show. And, um,

You’re so welcome. I enjoyed

lovely discussion and I’m excited to kind of keep going through all the stuff in the book and Yeah, I’m gonna check out some of your classes too. So thank you. Dr. Betty Martin for being here And thank you everybody for listening and we will catch you next Monday for another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist.

Bye everybody.

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