This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to Ask a Sex Therapist.

  📍  Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. We have a return guest today. This is actually our first return guest, Dr. Kate Balistrieri, uh, who’s become a buddy of mine as well. Um, so Kate, runs Modern Intimacy, an amazing group practice that is in a few different states. Um, I don’t remember all of them.

I know you’re in Florida, only at 10 states. Okay. So, so if you guys are looking for some support, definitely reach out and we’ll link to Kate’s practice in the bio as well. Um, Kate’s also a very busy lady, so I’m glad that she could take some time to join us today. Uh, so for being here,

Oh, thank you. I am so honored to be your first returning guest. What a thrill.

true. It’s true. so, so we were talking and we would love to chat with you guys about the number one most popular fantasy and how to make fantasies happen. Um, so it’s all about threesomes today. And, um, I know Dr. Justin Lee Miller’s book, Tell Me What You Want, he did like one of the largest, um, studies on sexual fantasies.

And so that’s where I kind of learned that, you know, group sex and threesomes in particular are, um, the most common sexual fantasy. And so let’s, you know, help you guys make this happen.

Yeah, it’s really funny. Every time I’m talking to people about their fantasies, I think folks have a lot of fear around talking about group sex, but it does seem to be the thing that most people really want to bring into fruition because look, let’s face it. It’s taboo. It’s fake. fun. There’s a lot of, um, opportunity for synergistic energies with more than one people and all that attunement.

It’s, it’s a really, it’s a fun situation.

it is a fun situation, you know, and I, I just gave a talk locally, um, this past week and I had everyone write down on note cards, you know, like what’s one way you want to spice things up and yeah, it’s like groups, there was an orgy on there and there was, you know, some different kind of, uh, multi partner, uh, scenarios and so yeah, this fantasy is alive and well, um, but when I hear from people.

I think a lot of what I hear is like, well, but how do you find people or how do you know? And there’s kind of this almost like frustration or like, this is like a mythical unicorn that you can’t actually make happen. And I beg to differ.

totally beg to differ, but I do think you have to know where to look and how to start these conversations because if you are a sex positive person and you Run around in circles with other sex positive people, it’s likely there’s going to be more openness for these kinds of conversations. Right. Yeah.

And everybody knows somebody who’s done this. I shouldn’t say everybody, but most people know

might not know. Yeah. You might not know that you know someone, but you do.

in a lot of urban areas. There are groups that are Meet up that are things like friends with benefits or their kink groups or their fetish groups or their play party groups.

So, you know, there are a lot of underground communities that exist. They can be sometimes hard to find, and that’s by design. But when you talk to people here and there, you do a little searching on FetLife or Field, you can usually run into folks who have had some experience in organizing some sort of group dynamic.

There’s so many different ways to organize a threesome.

Yeah, I agree. There are. Um, and let’s talk a little bit because I like what you’re saying with this of like sex positive community. And that’s been a big part of my experience too. It’s like, because I’m a sex therapist, even if I just go to a regular old networking event, I’m like, I am Heather. I’m a sex therapist.

That, then people start telling me all the things, you know, then you find out about like, Oh, here’s the swingers taking over this bar. And then here’s the, you know, munch that someone’s going to. I, I found out in improv class, just like randomly getting partnered with a guy and he was like, Oh, what do you do?

And I’m like, I’m a sex therapist, which I don’t always tell people. But he was like, oh, I’m going to lunch right after this, you know, so people just start volunteering information, sometimes too much. Um, but I think finding that community is such a good start for this, for any, making any fantasy come true in the bedroom.

totally. Totally. And to your point, I’ve stopped telling people on airplanes that I’m a sex therapist because I don’t want to be contained in a space with all of that data coming at me. I tell them now I, I’m an eyebrow esthetician or something, but

we have great eyebrows? So that’s

well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It’s, it’s part of my cover. Um, but no, it. It’s important, it’s important to find those sex positive communities and if you can’t find them, be it, right? Be it for people and

Yes.

talking about with your groups of friends, hey, can we create more sex positive conversation?

What does that look like to all of us? What are our fears? What are we willing to learn together? Um, can we be in a space of non judgment with each other as we investigate these new ideas or possibilities? And that doesn’t mean you have to be sexual together.

True.

I like recommending things like get a sexy book club and read some sex education together.

Like really expand your vernacular and expand your knowledge base when it comes to learning about sex because we all have pretty crappy sex education in this country.

So, so bad.

Yeah. So bad.

I don’t know if I should be saying this on the podcast because I might lose all my credibility, but I was watching MILF Manor and they had, they had like these young guys and, oh my, and there was moms, it was a whole thing. Anyways, but they had, they had guys have to point out anatomy, like part of the, you know, vulva and like, where, where’s the clitoris?

Where’s the spot? You know, you shouldn’t touch, where are the lips? And like, they were just.

They don’t know.

It was deeply concerning and one guy said something like, all I need to know is where to put it. And I was like, no, no.

That’s all you need to know if you want to be remembered as somebody who’s really not super great in bed. It

Exactly. So there’s a little effort that needs to be happening. I agree. And, um, and honestly, it’s a pretty fun thing to learn about.

It totally is. Yeah. I think it’s super fun.

Yeah, we’re a little biased here, but that’s okay. If you’re listening to this, you’re probably already on board with the learning about sex. And I mean, in podcasts are another way to be like, Oh, hey friend, did you listen to this podcast? And you look forward to someone episode and then you’re like opening up the conversation, you

Yes. Yes.

So, so I, I like that. I think books, articles, podcasts, like anything that’s kind of neutral. Cause then you’re also not making it like too, too personal or like intrusive right away.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. You can all sort of react to this external stimulus like, Oh, wow. In the article, it said this and they did this. And that’s super interesting or wow. I never thought about that. I think it can be great conversation starter and it can help people think about what are their own limits.

What are their own curiosities? And, and it can just get you used to talking about sex, which is really helpful when you’re going to start. Seeking a threesome or some other fantasy because the more you can say, Hey, I’m into this. I’m not into this. I’d really like to try this, but I don’t know how that works logistically.

Um, or this is really curious, but I have some fears or concerns because of blah, blah, blah. I mean, the more you can just be really blunt and upfront about what you like, the more likely you are to find people who have a synergistic view.

Yeah. It’s so true. And I mean, Kate and I also talk about sex professionally. So, um, but I mean, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this too. Sometimes I’ll get people that come in and go like, I’m like so uncomfortable talking about this. And I’m like, it’ll be fine. And I think like, when you model for people, hey, it’s actually not that big of a deal.

Like, it’s totally fine to talk about this. Then they’re like, oh, that wasn’t as bad as I thought.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

You can do that in your non professional lives, if you’re listening. Unless you have a very cool work environment. Which hopefully there’s some of those out there. But, uh, but yeah.

is probably a conversation that’s NSFW, right? Because HR may not love you talking about Three Sims at the water cooler.

Unless they work for you or me.

Right. Right? It

I Yeah, sometimes I feel so funny about that, though, where I’m like, okay, I’m like talking to my new intern about, you know, yeah, like going to fetish con or something and that’s appropriate.

is appropriate. I know. My team and I always chuckle, we’re like, can you believe we’re having this conversation in a workplace and it’s not inappropriate? It’s like actually relevant and necessary.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So anyways, so create the space like, like you said, Kate, you know, create the space if you don’t know how to find one. But also, like, where would you tell people to look to find existing communities?

Yeah. So I’m a big fan of recommending apps like Field or FetLife. What are some of the others that you recommend along that same arc? Yeah.

also like where I live, there’s some like different, uh, I don’t know, Tantra teachers or just like sex coaches, erotic blueprint coaches who have different workshops and events. So they’ll have like a, like a Tantra essentials or like a munch, which you could also find on FetLife. Um, some of them are just on Eventbrite, you know, um, Yeah, I did the, the talk I did was just like spicing up your sex life and it was at like a queer owned bookstore in St.

Pete. And yeah, they, they advertised on, you know, Eventbrite and like basically anywhere where you can find a workshop. So, I mean, a lot of these things are just kind of hiding in plain sight.

Well, that’s amazing. Yeah. You can find so much. You can go to local dungeons, too. They often have a lot of classes and educational events or networking or community events that can be really good to just go and learn. I remember before I was a sex therapist, I used to go to a dungeon in LA and just learn

Yeah.

What it meant to be a dominatrix and what was the psychology behind that?

And, and, and I found it really fascinating and riveting and nothing sexual was happening. So it was completely appropriate for someone who doesn’t know if it’s something they want to get into because you’re just learning. And so I think there’s just really cool things like that going on in lots of places.

Yeah. Mm

I think, you know, COVID changed some of it where like a lot of things stopped being in person, but I think it’s coming back, you know, um, like that was just my first in person workshop since before COVID. And, um, so people are getting back out there and, um, You know, I think that, yeah, I also kind of started with a, uh, educational workshops at a dungeon before becoming a sex therapist.

So that’s funny that we both did that. Um, and then sex toy stores would be the other one

hmm.

I would say. So they’re in Chicago, New York and LA, there’s Pleasure Chest, which I really love. So that, that was actually like a big part of my, journey of just being comfortable talking about sex. Like I went in there and like the person helping me was just so freaking like comfortable that it was just like this mind blown moment of like, You can be that comfortable talking about sex, you know, and know that much?

Like, I was just like, Oh, this is like opening up almost like a portal into another world of possibilities. So that’s what happens when you find a great community is like, you can have your mind blown.

literally. And you know what I find? Somebody was telling me the other day, um, they were, they’re not a sex therapist. They’re in a different, uh, specialty niche in the field of psychology. And they were asking me if I have a hard time getting colleagues to collaborate as a sex therapist. And I said, you know, what I find is that sex therapists are some of the nicest, most collaborative people.

Like professionals in this space, and I think it’s because we have overcome so much when we talk about this, like the stigma that gets assigned to anybody who’s a sexual professional, sexual health professional, and so I think there’s just like a lot of generativity when you’re in this space. space, because whether you’re a sex therapist or a sex coach, or you work at a sex toy store or something like that, I think a lot of us really implicitly understand how hard it can be for people to get to that place.

And so we want to be really generous and really, um, collaborative and, and inclusive for folks who are wanting to learn more.

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree with you. I think everything you said about like the personal journey to like get to this point professionally and the fact that we’re censored everywhere.

Yes,

So we’re like, we got to help each other out.

totally.

Yeah. Um, okay. So now let’s assume people have found a sex positive community. And so then hopefully you’re talking about fantasies and ideas and figuring out who, you know, might be open to things.

Um, Let’s talk a little bit about some of the differences if you’re single or partnered. Uh, when you’re approaching this idea of a threesome. Because I know, you know, single people might be like, I gotta find two people, you know? gotta like, be attracted to both of them, you know?

Yeah. And partner people might be like, Oh, we both have to agree on who the third is. We both have to be attracted to this third person and like find a synergy there. And that can be a lot to balance.

That is kind of a lot to balance, you know? And I think the other piece is like, when you’re in a relationship, some people might also feel like it’s a threat to the relationship.

They can, they can. Well, who do you wanna start with if you’re, if you’re not partnered or if you’re partnered.

Let’s start with the single people. Yeah. Um, I have some feelings about this.

Okay.

Yeah, so. I’ve had some different experiences. Um, I think with when you’re the third person, kind of like if there’s an existing couple, maybe, and you’re the third person there, um, you have to be like pretty secure in yourself, I would say.

Um, and you also want to be mindful of, am I going to need any kind of like aftercare? Like, is this going to be like a real peak intensity experience? And, and then like, no one’s going to kind of be there for me, or do I maybe need to request that someone is there for me? Um, so that’s, so that’s something I think to think about, especially if you’re a delicate, sensitive flower like myself. Um,

well, I know that you have, you have the right to ask for that aftercare, right? Even if you are joining a couple, one of the things that I think is super important to remember is that in a threesome, there are three humans there. Right. And each of those humans have needs that are valid and need to be prioritized.

So each person might have to think about what are the things that are most important to me in this experience? What, what, what would be nice? And what am I willing to let go of? Right. So once you have that prioritized list of needs or wants, and then you can sort of come to the group and say, here are the things that are really important to me, can we make this work?

Can we all make this work? And, and sometimes you’ll meet up with people who are just so organized around their own pleasure or their own partnerships, pleasure that they forget there’s another human around. So if you’re experiencing that, it might be, you know, might be advantageous for you to bring to their attention.

There’s another human here who has some stuff to factor in, but they also might not be the right people for you to engage in this with if they’re, if they’re, you know, asserting either implicitly or explicitly their couple privilege.

and I think you say more about that the couple privilege piece because I think that’s an important concept.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, the language couple privilege, the sort of comes from the world of, of polyamorous relationships. Um, but it sort of exists in the sense that like, The, the couple, the formed couple assumes that like their needs as a couple are more important than the third or the other partner. And I don’t think a lot of couples are doing this on purpose.

They’re just so, they’re so organized around protecting their partnership, which is great, um, that they sort of forget that there’s another human there. And look, we grow, we all sort of live in a very objectifying culture. So I think it’s really easy to objectify folks unintentionally and see them as. You know, uses for our pleasure.

So it’s important to kind of, you know, check in with yourselves, if you are the couple, or if you’re going to be interviewing a couple to make sure that everybody’s in an egalitarian position here. Yeah,

this way, like, we’re both like, so thoughtful and intentional, I think, about, and we like, want to communicate and make sure everyone’s feelings are tended to like, this is not average. No, like this is not what you’re going to find necessarily.

If you like, or like, I don’t have a threesome, like don’t expect people to initiate these types of conversations. Like, I think you should go in expecting to be the one to initiate these conversations. And the other thing I’ll say is like, you sometimes don’t know what your intention is or what you need or what until after it happens.

Right, and it doesn’t make someone a bad person or even a bad fit for a threesome if they don’t know or if they’re sort of bumbling their way into this experience, too, because there is a lot that you learn as you’re having the conversation. So, you know, it’s important to remember that a healthy cycle of any kind of play with people involves communication, negotiation, agreement, and then the play experience.

Okay. Thanks.

Yeah, right.

and debriefing. So, you know, there’s a lot of steps here to make sure that everyone gets tended to. And in each of those different stages of the experience, make sure that each person is getting equal time to really express what’s going on for them and their fears or their concerns or their excitements.

I love that. It just sounds like such a beautiful process, the way you’re describing it. And it’s also making me feel like, um, it’s just a great screener. Like, if you approach things this way, we’re like, Hey, like, let’s have these steps and like phases of this process. It’s not sort of like this impulsive, You know, wham, bam, thank you ma’am experience of like, I have used your body and now you are dead to me, you know, which sure happens sometimes, but,

Yeah. And is, and is somebody, and is some people’s kink, right? To sort of have a very quick and, and like non personal experience. But I think that gets a little tricky when you don’t know people. You do have to sort of evaluate. Do we want the same kind of anonymous experience? Do we want the same sort of, um, impulsive experience?

And if you do, it’s still important to go through some, some questions to make sure that you’re on the same page, because otherwise you run a big risk of, you know, hurting someone either emotionally or physically.

Yeah, yeah, I think that’s a good point. I mean, because yeah, and that’s fine if it’s like, and some people get off on sort of being used as a toy, but agree on that first.

agree on that. Hear them say that out loud, double check that you’re, you have the same meaning of what that is. And then.

Yes. Yeah. I think that’s the piece. And I think that’s where, you know, we as therapists are always like, there’s like five deeper layers to this. Like, you got to keep being curious, you know? And a lot of times people will be like, why scratch the surface of that? So I’m giving it a check mark.

And, you know, I think we would probably both encourage you to be like, well, let’s see. Let’s check what that means,

Yeah, yeah.

yeah. So, okay. So that’s, so that’s from kind of the single perspective. Um, and then, you know, let’s talk about the partner perspective too. So if you’re in a relationship and you’re, this is appealing to you.

You also have to bring it up to your partner and that could be an intimidating conversation.

It can be, especially, well, so there’s a couple of things to think about when you’re bringing this up to your partner. Um, are you in a good sex space? Right, and you don’t necessarily have to be in a good sex space to bring this up, but if you’re not, it might come with extra layers of delicacy, because your sex life together has been flat, or it’s been non existent, or it’s been sort of Um, drum, uh, your partner or you could really quickly go to a place of fear.

Like, are they bringing someone in because they’re done with me because they’re afraid that we don’t have a good sex life or because I’m not enough. And so I think it’s super important to remember that either of you can be really sensitive and, and protective. Immediately out of the gate. So, you know, be gentle and bring it up.

It’s like, uh, Hey, I saw this somewhere. I heard about this somewhere. Is that something you could be curious about? But, you know, I think it’s important to be, you know, respectful of each other and where you are in your relationship. And I wouldn’t necessarily just go in and be like, I want to have a threesome.

We’re going to do this this weekend. And if you don’t want to do this, we’re done. I mean, don’t do ultimatums. I can’t tell you how many couples I’ve worked with where somebody has already started the process of finding a third and they kind of, you know, Like, work it in so their partner feels like they now have no choice, they have to say yes, or there are lots of, lots of people involved in their no, and that, it is very confronting, and it can really set couples up for a fracture.

Yeah. I’ve seen that too and I think that the intentions are usually not bad. But it’s almost like because there’s maybe still some shame or stigma around it, it’s kind of like, I’m kind of avoiding bringing this up. And I’m kind of exploring on my own. I’m kind of justifying why. And I’m kind of, you know, it’s like, okay, you know, it’s like, are you really doing this?

Like for your partner’s sake, where you just want to have everything ready for them or, you know, should we get consent first?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I agree that it’s not always indicative of coercion, but it often is. Um, and, and I think some partners get so excited about the idea of it that they want to create unconsciously or consciously a dynamic where their partner can’t say no. Or, you know, they’re hoping that their partner’s going to be just as excited as they are, and they haven’t really gotten out of their own headspace to think about their partner’s experience of how this is coming

Right. Right. And I think that’s often because they’re in their head in scarcity, almost anticipating a no, almost like I’m so excited about this and you’re going to like take it away from me. And so I just need to like live it in my mind by myself for a little

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of though, I think what, what you just said reminds me a lot of couples will use this as a fantasy and never bring it into fruition. And that is an option. That is

Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. And

and

I love that.

totally, not every group sex fantasy needs to involve sex with multiple people.

There are other instances, like you and I did an episode on my podcast about cuckolding and hot wife fantasies. That’s usually an organization of three, right? So sometimes people can watch, people can be a part of it or not. So there’s just many different iterations.

And that, that’s true. I think of now I’m thinking of group sex is like a spectrum, you know, and so it might be like, okay, here’s some we would actually want to do, like, maybe three, some we actually want to do, but maybe like gang bang, we don’t or cuckolding. We don’t, but it’s a fun thing to play with mentally,

hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

so there’s, you can, you can move around on the spectrum and try things on mentally and see what’s exciting.

And I, I encourage that.

I do too, right? And, and one of the questions I get a lot from, from both single people and people in relationships is, um, when I’m thinking about group sex or, or being a third or inviting in a third, you know, does it mean that I’m not enough? For my partner or for a partner, and I think it’s super important to confront this idea of scarcity or that we have an amount of desire right now.

Some people do have a more fixed arousal where they only find certain things or certain fetishes, um, interesting or arousing to them. But for the most part, folks can like many different kinds of sex and many different kinds of bodies, right? In their arousal templates. So if your partner’s saying, Hey, I’d like to invite someone in who looks like this, and that’s not what you look like, it does not mean they’re not attracted to you necessarily.

I think that’s, yeah, thank you for saying that too. I think that like, it’s important to look at what are the, what’s the meaning we’re making out of our partner wanting to be with someone else. So if you’re like on the receiving end of this conversation, um, To notice that and notice what comes up for you and, you know, get to a place where you’re genuinely comfortable before moving on, you know?

Um, otherwise if it’s just like, well, I feel like I have to do this to keep my relationship. No.

no, if, if, yeah, if you’re feeling that way or if your partner’s putting that kind of pressure on you, in my opinion, that’s a great time to pump the brakes and hard, right? Like no one should feel that this is an inevitability if it’s not something that they are enthusiastic about or enthusiastically open to, even if it’s not something that they really desire yet.

Right. I think that’s a good distinction, too, because, um, I’m thinking of a couple that I’ve been working with, and at first it seemed like, okay, there’s some openness, you know, um, to exploring different ethical non monogamy arrangements, and then it became very clear, like, this is not healthy for this partner at this time.

Um, and to move. And so I got to a point where I was like, I cannot move forward with this with you guys. Um, because it’s not feeling ethical to me. So, yeah. So I think that’s important to look at at each stage. Like it can change too. Yeah.

Now, one of the other things that I run into a lot with couples who are in this space of either evaluating if they should bring in a third, or maybe they’ve been doing it for a while and they’re trying to decide, does this work for us? Or do we want to make some changes to what we’ve been doing?

I think it’s important to remember that Throughout the course of our lifespan, we have different relationships with desire and when you have kids or when you change jobs and you have other stressors, if you’re having a dip in desire around that, you know, it can be really painful. Okay. It can be really amplifying in someone’s, in a couple’s desire discrepancy.

If one partner’s like, I want to do more of this. And the other partner’s like, Oh, I can barely think about getting myself together for one experience just with my partner. So have a lot of patience with each other because this can bring up a lot of variations for folks to negotiate and to mediate with one another.

point. I also wanted to bring up another type of threesome where maybe you’re all single people and no one. Relationship. And that, that is also a thing that could happen. So if you decide that, you know, you’re not into being with a couple who has that kind of couple privilege or preexisting relationship, or if, you know, I guess if you’re partnered, you can’t do this. You could, you can do it without your partner.

Depends on your relationship. Yeah.

which might be an interesting experience. Um, But yeah, so again, if you’re in like sex positive communities and you’re having discussions with people, like these things actually can happen kind of organically, right?

And, and then you also have to think if something seems like it’s starting to happen to like at least pump the brakes and have some kind of conversation about limits and boundaries and, You know, uh, pregnancy prevention or STI prevention or who’s been tested and how recently. So there’s, there’s a lot to talk about.

There is. Yeah. And look, everyone has different thresholds for these sort of safety measures. Some people are less interested in, in these kinds of protections. Other people are very interested. Whatever is your truth is fine, right? But be transparent about that with other folks and and really make sure that you are advocating for yourself in a way that feels good and it’s okay if you’re on the more conservative end of that spectrum and you want to have everyone get tested before you decide to play and you want to use barriers and and and that’s okay to want that and if someone else is like, no, that’s not how I play.

Okay, that’s fine. That doesn’t make them bad. It doesn’t make you bad, but maybe you’re not a great fit for this sort of play.

Yeah, that’s, that’s like very well put and, you know, you can be compassionate towards everyone while it’s still being a no. But that’s also hard. It’s hard to tell yourself no, when you get like all excited about the idea. And so that’s why, I mean, it’s good that everyone’s listening to this because now you can kind of think about it beforehand and have your wits about you a little

Yeah.

you know?

Totally. Like, I like to do a little pre planning with folks that I’m working with and like, let’s create your boundaries now. When you’re in a headspace that isn’t aroused and you haven’t been out at a party, you’re not drinking, you’re not doing all these things, like let’s write down what you’re committing to yourself are going to be your bottom lines for safety and for your needs.

These are the things that have to be in place and put it in your phone or put the paper in your wallet. Look at it when you’re out at the party and say, okay, this is what I committed to myself. This is what I’m going to stick to. And then you’ve got it. You’ve prepared. Yeah.

And I think it’s kind of like, um, not only are you being aware of your boundaries and your intentions, you’re kind of manifesting a little bit, I think just by having that with you and, and kind of thinking about it and like, you know, leaning into the emotions of it and how you want to feel and yeah, that’s exciting actually.

Um, okay. So then let’s say, let’s say you actually get to the threesome.

Mm

So you’re just like, oh my gosh, we’ve had the discussions. I know my boundaries. I found the people. Um, let’s talk about expectations a little bit, because obviously this is lived in your mind as a fantasy for a while, probably. And, you know, Real life and fantasy are sometimes a little bit different. Yeah. Because they are my experience, you know, but, um, so yeah, I kind of want to just touch on that. Like, how do we manage expectations and, you know, kind of stay present, you know?

people that threesomes or group sex are similar to two person, two, you know, two partner sex in the sense that things can get awkward, you can have sounds and you can have, you know, awkward position changes and it’s, it’s not going to be this giant, glamorous. You know, movie scene like you might think it’s going to be however many bodies there are moving around and being humans and so expect that right and expect, especially if it’s your first time or you’re early in this practice, expect to have a lot of feelings, like, Especially if you’re in a, if you’re part of a couple and you’re doing this, like think about things like jealousy, talk with each other about how are you going to handle it if you get into this situation and one of you gets so jealous that you’re uncomfortable.

Um, I’ve worked with many couples where one partner gets so uncomfortable that they’re even nauseous during the play. Yeah, so so talk about like, what are our thresholds for when we’re going to pull the ripcord and say, you know what, we have to stop. And that’s okay, right? It’s okay to say, I changed my mind, or I’m really uncomfortable in a way I didn’t anticipate.

But let’s assume it’s it’s wonderful. And it’s you’re having fun, you still are primed to have awkward moments. So Don’t judge yourselves. Don’t judge other people. Just, you know, kind of come back to being embodied and come back to

Mm hmm.

of pleasure and attune to everybody there. Right? And unless you’ve agreed to prioritize attunements in a different way, try to create attunement so that you’re, you’re noticing yourself and each partner with equal measures so that you can stay embodied and stay connected to everyone in the process.

Mm-Hmm.

Yeah. I think that’s great. And I think, you know, I do want to just acknowledge like so much of what we’re saying is like a tall order and like, I think that’s very like, you know, optimal version. And I know some of you listening, hopefully we’ll do the optimal version. And if not, maybe at least take away a couple of things and move in that direction.

But, um, yeah, I think that just like, The being present, the adjusting expectations is very important. Um, and also just like bring some compassion for yourself because you’re probably not going to do everything perfect and neither will your partners. And, you know, and like you’ll learn from it, you know, and part of it is just like being on this journey.

Um, is the journey smoother when you do what Kate and I are talking about? Yes.

But might it take a few times to get to that place where you feel comfortable with that kind of smooth process? Yeah, that’s okay. Oh,

with yourself. And then, um, yeah, I think like you have to be secure. I think a lot of what we’re talking about requires a certain level of like self awareness and knowledge, and then also just security in yourself. It’s like, if you’re in the middle of a threesome and you pump the brakes and say, we have to stop, that is like brave and like deeply secure behavior.

and it’s and it’s so like, yeah, it’s absolutely the way to go if you’re feeling uncomfortable and it is brave. You know, a lot of folks would feel like, Oh, I’m here. I might as well just let this happen.

right. Or I’m going to ruin it for everyone else because, and I think especially people who are socialized as

Mm

you know, we have this people pleaser thing and, you know, I’ve, I’ve talked to clients about this. I’ve even seen this in porn where I’m like, I don’t know this person is still consenting.

Like, I think they probably did at the beginning. And like, this is like making me uncomfortable because I think now they’re just feeling like I can’t stop or say

Yeah, yeah, you can see, well, I imagine you can see that dissociated look on some porn star’s faces that you just sort of like, I always wonder like, Hmm, are they even here right now? Are they in this room?

yeah, yeah,

for this? Or have they checked out because they don’t want to say no.

right, right, right. We can kind of tell by body language or other things. It’s like something shifted. So, you know, so I guess I just want to acknowledge that, like how hard it is to kind of be the odd one out in a group situation or worry about ruining other people’s time, but also I think to recognize that it’s like, you’re not actually doing anyone any favors if you’re like uncomfortable, feel unsafe emotionally or physically, and are just pushing through it.

Like that’s not intimacy.

Yeah. I hear about these kinds of concerns a lot from people who are socialized as women, especially if they are engaging with people who know each other and they’re the third. It can mean, you know, two people who are friends and have a prior relationship or a couple. Um, there’s a lot of fear around like, if I don’t.

Perform, and I’m putting that in air quotes, um, is there a safety? Is there a safety issue? Will there be a safety issue? Uh, in addition to, will I disappoint them? So I do think that it’s important if you are somebody who is worried about safety to do some vetting. Um, you can ask for testimonials. I know a lot of folks in the kink world will be, will, will say like, yes, I’ve played with this person.

I’ve played with this person. They’re willing to vouch for me. So, Not everyone will have testimonials or references, but you can ask because some people do. Um, also same safety precautions when you’re going out with people in a non threesome situation. Maybe tell someone where you’re going if you’re going to a place that is not your own home.

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like all of this, nothing is 100 percent safe, right? But you can make it safer and you can show up for yourself. And I think ultimately, like, if you’re willing to show up for yourself and it’s like, hey, if this person doesn’t like it, then maybe that’s okay if I lose that relationship. Um, but then, but then when you, when you do all of this hard emotional work, you can have a really good

an amazing time and you can learn so much about yourself. I mean, I think group sex are a way to really like get a deep dive into who am I as a sexual being? How do I show up when they’re, you know, when I’m giving attention to more than one person or more than one person giving attention to me and what does that feel like?

I mean, it can bring up a lot of nuance and a lot of. Things you just didn’t know about yourself and how you experience sex and attunement and care.

I love that. Yeah. So that’s, that’s what I’m wanting for everyone listening, that if you want to have a threesome, go do it, do it, do it as safe as possible in an intentional way and, you know, build that inner security. Um, if you need help with that, Kate and I are here for it. Um, but, uh, but yeah, it can be a really fun experience and I think not only can it be amazing, I think it can also exceed expectations.

You might be expecting it to be more clumsy and awkward than it is, or. That you don’t know what to do, but you know, if you’re able to just kind of be present and like kind of flow with the energy of the people you’re engaging with, um, yeah, I think it can be really like transformative and exciting. And, um, like you said, Kate, something you can learn more about yourself with.

So, um, so yeah, here’s, here’s to having more threesomes.

Three cheers to threesomes. Um,

a really fun topic though. Thank you so much for, uh, joining me on this one, Kate. And are there any like parting words about threesomes or group sex that you’d like to share with people?

As you said earlier, it’s, group sex is the most common fantasy. So try not to import too much meaning into, uh, wanting it or not wanting it. Okay. Thanks. So many folks want to engage in threesomes or moresomes, that it’s, it’s like part of, uh, basically the, the human experience at this point.

It’s, it’s the most prevalent fantasy. So even if it’s something you never put into action, please don’t judge yourself. Please don’t judge your partner. If it’s something that feels exciting, because that’s true for a lot of people. And look, we are organized around pleasure. and novelty as human beings. So

Mm hmm.

it makes sense that we would want to invite new partners and have different experiences to optimize pleasure.

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also okay if you’re not ready for it, for whatever reason.

Or never, or never interested. That’s also okay too. Yeah. It’s not a right wrong that the only thing normal about human sexuality is that it’s completely diverse.

And I love that. Like, I love the diversity of sexuality. Like, that’s what makes me passionate about this work.

Me too. Me

Yeah.

Oh, thank you. This was so fun. I had such a good time

And obviously we’ll link to your, um, your website for your group practice. Is there anywhere else where people can find you or connect with you if they’re curious? Mm hmm.

Yeah, I would say, um, on TikTok and Instagram, I’m at Dr. Kate Balistrieri, and on YouTube, I’m at Modern Intimacy, and we have a lot of content that goes out, some professional, some fun personal stuff, and, and, you know, definitely if you’re somebody who’s looking for support around how to make this happen, um, Heather’s team, my team, you know, we’ve got a lot of A lot of really sex positive clinicians between the two of us, and there are many more beyond our practices.

So don’t hesitate to reach out and get support, because it can make a big difference.

Yay. I love that. Well, on that note, thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, Dr. Kate for being here, and we’ll catch you next Monday. Bye, everybody.

  Thank you for listening to the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast. Got a question about spicing things up in the bedroom? Find the answers you’re looking for in my Dirty Talk Guide, a free resource for my podcast listeners. Grab yours now at heathershannon. co forward slash dirty talk. Again, that’s heathershannon.

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