This video is sponsored by Dateability, the only dating app for disabled and chronically ill people.

  This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to Ask a Sex Therapist.

 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another exciting episode. Uh, we have a guest today. I know you guys have been probably missing the guest episodes. Um, so today we have Andrew Gerza. Andrew is an award winning disability awareness consultant and the chief disability officer and co founder of Bumpin, a sex toy company for and by disabled people.

Andrew uses they, he pronouns and identifies proudly as disabled. Their work has been featured on BBC. CBC, Daily Extra, Gay Times UK, Huffington Post, The Advocate, Everyday Feminism, Mashable, Out. com, and several anthologies. He was the subject of an award winning National Film Board of Canada documentary, Picture This.

Andrew has guested on a number of podcasts, including Dan Savage’s Savage Love and Cameron Esposito’s Queery. He has spoken all over the world on sex, disability, and what it means to be a queer cripple. Welcome, Andrew!

Hello!

So happy to have you here. I’ve been looking forward to this episode.

and we’ve, I’ve, we’ve, I’ve been changing it around, and the times have been shifting, and so I’m glad we’re finally doing

Yeah, same, same. Like, life happens, as I said before we hit record, you know, we’ve also had some crazy hurricanes and things where I live. So, um, totally get it. Uh, And you were recommended to me by my podcast intern, who’s now a coach, uh, with my company, Grace. So thank you to Grace for the recommendation.

And also an audience member. Yeah, yeah. People know who you are. So that’s exciting. And then, um, Yeah, a family friend who listens to the show had also specifically requested I do an episode, uh, on sex and disability. So it’s something I’ve been wanting to do for a while. So, um, yeah.

That’s so cool, and I’m, it’s so nice that I, you know, my, my name is out there in the world, and people love, that’s, I love that I’m the go to sex and disability guy, that’s pretty

Yeah, it is cool. So, like, how did you get into this work? I’d love to just hear a little bit more about your story.

Um, I wasn’t going to do this work. This is not my plan. I’d went to school for a master’s of arts and legal studies. And I, my plan was to, you know, my, my, yeah. Right. My plan was to be like a law or like Dun Dun kind of like lawyer, dude, that was my plan, but then they were like, Oh, do you want to do another, do do a seven year PhD after your master’s?

And I was like, well, will that get me a job? And they were like, Probably not. And I was like, cool. Well, then the answer is no, I don’t want to do this anymore. So I left academia. Yeah. Like I left academia because I just was like, well, no, I’m not going to waste my, I don’t want to know. I want to make money now.

Like I want to be useful now. And so then I, I phoned up a bunch of disability employment agencies in, in and around Toronto, Canada, where I live. And, uh, they all told me, I, I said, I want to do disability speaking. I have. I want to speak on, on the lived experience of disability. How do I become a speaker?

And they all said, well, that’s a nice hobby, but that’s not a real job.

Oh.

And so I was like, well, fuck you. It is a job. Watch me make it one. And so, so I basically like turned it into a job and I, I literally printed off, uh, printed off a card from Vistaprint with my name saying that I was a disability consultant, which I’m sure I stole from somebody else, and I just said, this is what I do.

This, this is what I do. Here’s who I am.

I love that. You’re like, today, this is my new career. Let’s go.

I mean, basically because I was done with school, I had no money. I live on, well, I live on about 1500 a month of social assistance, which when you live on social assistance, that’s not a lot of money. So, I was like, well, I need, I need to work to sustain myself. And I was like, what is the one thing that I’ve never, That I wanted to talk about, but I’ve never really talked about.

And I was like, well, I’m queer and I’m disabled and I like sex and I want to have more sex. So like, if I start talking about that, maybe I’ll get laid more. Maybe I’ll meet guys. There was, there was a very selfish part of me.

yeah, purely altruistic motives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a very selfish part of me that was like, I want to do this to meet dudes.

That’s so funny, but I love it.

And so, I mean, it sort of, it didn’t fall on my lap. Like, I’ve curated it, and I’ve crafted my what I do. But, but, to start, it was very much, I need a job. How do I do this? And I realized my niche was, Sexuality, queerness, and disability, because at the time, in my world, nobody was talking about that, at least not to me, so I was like, well, maybe I can use my experience of sex and disability to build a brand around that.

Yeah. So I’m curious, like, did it work? Did you wind up getting laid by more dudes?

I mean, no, I dealt with more ableism, guys are trash, uh, but, I mean. I got my name out there and I, I, you know, because of, of me doing that, I’ve been, you know, like in that beautiful intro, all those places want to connect with me for sexuality and disability things, queerness and disability panels all the time.

And like, that’s, I love that. And so I wish I could say that I’ve met more dudes and I’ve had a ton of relationships because of the work I do, but not really. I mean, I think, I just hit 40, I just hit 40 this past spring and I think I’m destined to be single the rest of my life. Um, and I don’t mean that in like a sad posi like, I don’t know, I just think, I think, I honestly think that I, that I, that that’s What’s my?

That’s what’s gonna be. That’s fine. I’m okay with that, but that doesn’t mean I can’t get laid and and like Thank God for sex work because that because that means I can so get laid.

Yeah, that’s true. Uh, I am also single in my forties and uh, I’m not giving up, but I am taking like a little hiatus, which I talked about a few episodes ago.

Yeah. Yeah, I’m It’s not a give up. It’s more like I want to enjoy my time without dealing with it. I’m like You know, guys can be trash. So I just need to, I need to, I need a little break.

I know all humans can be trash, honestly. Sometimes I feel like I used to be like, yeah. Men suck. But it’s really, women suck too. Non binary people also suck. Everyone just sucks a little bit sometimes. Sometimes disabled people suck. Yeah.

Don’t worry. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. It’s like no one’s exempt from sucking sometimes. Um,

No,

okay. So, so that makes sense. It sounds like you’re really passionate about this work and stuff. You know, even though the initial motivation was maybe a little bit, um, questionable, uh, the, the passion pulled you in and you’ve continued because you’re making a difference, which is really

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I’m really, I, we don’t talk enough about sex and disability. When we look at sex in the mainstream, um, we, we think sex and disability is taboo. Um, and it’s a shame because all of us. who are listening to this show and you and I sitting here in

Mm hmm.

If you, if you don’t experience disability already, you will be experiencing it at

Yeah, for sure. At least temporarily. Like, if you have a surgery or whatever, like, you will, you will lose. I actually think about this a fair amount. I don’t know if that’s a weird thing for me to think about, but it’s like, we’re all going to be getting older. We’re all going to be having changes to our body.

We’re all going to die at some point. Like, if you get really, really attached to your body working perfectly, it’s, it’s going to be pretty frustrating.

Yeah, exactly. And what’s perfect, like who defines what perfect is, who defines what’s perfect. So like, I think, you know, I think that sex and disability is taboo and we’re not talking about it and we should be.

Mm hmm.

I want to remind people that It will be their experience, whether, whether it’s in their bodies or they could run into somebody that has a disability that they fall in love with.

And that could be their experience too. So this whole idea that, that sex, that disability won’t touch us in some way is inaccurate.

Yeah, yeah, it 100 percent is. Um, I want to circle back to what you said about the sex work thing. Uh, let’s get into that a little bit more. Why are you passionate about that?

I think that it can be so hard for disabled people to meet. People in a regular context because the accessibility of spaces,

Mm hmm.

ableism that people, people kind of give to us as a, as the way they treat us. And for anybody listening who’s like, what the fuck is ableism? I’ll

I was just going to say that, yeah.

Um, ableism is the discrimination against. Disabled people in favor of able bodied people, so that can show up in anywhere from our jokes, to our policies, to our, to, to, to our lack of a ramp, I mean, look at the way, I mean, as fun as it is to make fun of our possible, please God, no, our incumbent president.

Coming in as fun as it is to make fun, to make fun of his body, as fun as it is to joke about that. When we joke about his body, we’re actually making fun of someone’s body, which is ableism. So, so, the way that I kind of fell in, well, I didn’t fall into sex work, I made a, I made a decision to hire a worker because I was tired of meeting Guys who couldn’t deal with my disability, and I was tired of meeting guys who didn’t, you know, know how to handle that.

So, I am very privileged in the work that I do that I had enough money saved up where I could hire a worker for an hour. And I just decided one night, fuck it, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give it a shot. And it was literally like, um, I went on a website, found a guy that I thought was hot, said, have you ever been with a disabled guy?

He said, no, I can be there in an hour. Bye. And then we set it up.

No, but I could be there in an hour. I love that. It’s a good attitude.

Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty chill.

yeah, that sounds super chill. And do you, like, do you have an ongoing thing with the same sex worker? Or do you kind of, like, mix it up a little bit?

Yeah, no, I have, I have my one worker I’ve been seeing now for almost, we just had our seven year anniversary the other day. Uh,

That’s kind of amazing!

been a bit, yeah, it’s been over seven years. It’s the longest. Relationship quote unquote that I’ve been in with the person And it feels super nice because yes, it’s it’s transactional but we care about each other and there’s a friendship there and it makes the Intimacy, it makes the intimacy that much more fun.

Cause it isn’t about the necessarily the money. It isn’t like most of our sessions, if I’m honest with you, are us comes over. We’ll mess around a little bit. We’ll like, he’ll, he’ll help me clean my apartment a little bit, which is

Oh, I

And then we’ll watch Bob’s burgers and make out and then we’ll do the things and, and like fall asleep.

Like it’s really. People have this idea that sex work is this like, seedy, dirty thing, and it’s not that, it’s so much, so much more than that. And so I’m really, I’m really proud of what I’ve cultivated with him, we have

Mm hmm.

fun friendship. And then occasionally I’ll like hire some new, some different guys to see like, If I like this one or if this one’s okay.

So that if, if I want to have a roster of dudes that I can get to know, because I have to trust the people that I sleep with a lot more than the average person. Maybe. I mean, we all should be trusting who we’re sleeping with, but like for me, because I have so many physical disabilities, um, I need their help to get in and out of my chair, undressed, positioned.

So I have to have a lot more like comfort with them than just come over and let’s see what happens. And so I like that I built a, a comfort level with, with this one guy for seven years where I know what I’m getting and he knows what he’s getting and we don’t have to, there’s no worry about that.

Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of Um, I, I guess I would love like what you’re saying about like the safety and like some of the physical, um, requirements of needing, needing to be positioned. So, uh, and obviously everyone’s disability is different, but I guess I’m just curious, like, what are, What are some of your thoughts in general?

Like what do people need to know?

I think we need to know that, first of all, sex work needs to be decriminalized for a few reasons, because, like, having the government trying to regulate sex work is ridiculous, because it always harms the worker and the client, and in Canada, where I live right now, it’s legal to be a sex worker, it’s not legal to purchase services, so you play this really weird Yeah, it’s very weird.

So you play this weird game of like, Oh no! We’re just friends! And I randomly threw him 300 because I needed him to do something for me. Cool, like it’s very, like It’s so strange because it’s sex work, but we can’t call it that. Well, I mean, we can call it, I can call it that here, but like legally, I just had a friend come over and we hung out.

So like, but you know, what people, what I think people need to know is that like, there needs to be more services for disabled people to access sex workers. Um, I know in Australia they have it as part of their disability insurance. So they give, they can give you, like, you can apply for a pot of money to work with a body worker.

Like that’s incredible. Like it should,

that is

be funded through our governments. You’re right. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s, it is interesting. And I, there is a lot, especially in the area of I’ve heard a lot of stories about like someone has a prostate surgery and they don’t get erections anymore. And like their doctors are kind of like, suck it up or you should just be happy to be alive. You know, we’re like sex, the sexual aspect of health, wellness connecting is just ignored. You know.

And so, I mean, that’s part of why I started looking for sex workers because I was like, I can’t go to a bar. I can’t meet people the normal way. I’m not, I’m not, to be blunt, I’m not coming as much as I would like to,

Mm hmm.

I need, I need help. What do I do? And I was like, well, okay, I guess I’m going to have a look, a real look at sex work.

And look, I have met sex workers who’ve stolen from me. I’ve met sex workers who’ve robbed me of money. I’ve met sex workers who have been real assholes. Like it’s taken time to really find a worker that I was comfy with. And

Mm hmm.

my worker now, I’m, um, I, I recommend sex work for every disabled person that wants to access it.

But I think that you have to do your, you have to do your homework. And you can’t, I think one of the things for a lot of disabled folks, especially those who have maybe been in a ton of relationships. You can’t fall for your sex worker because it’s their job. And I have, and I have, I have been definitely a victim to that.

I’ve like, Oh my God, this guy really likes me. Like I’m going to catch all these feelings. They’re not real feelings. You’re just excited because someone’s paying you attention, which is great. And you should enjoy that, but they’re not, it’s their job. Like they’re not your boyfriend. They’re not your partner.

They’re doing their job.

It’s kind of like the boyfriend experience. Yeah.

Yeah, and so when I, when I’m with a worker, like, that’s the first thing I’ll ask for. It’s like, I want you to pretend like, you know, it’s, this is what it is, but I have to remind myself,

Mm hmm. Mm

This isn’t, this is not real in the way you want it to, and that’s okay, but it’s, I mean, the sex is real and the connection can be real, but putting a label on any of that stuff, not so much.

Yeah, that makes sense.   📍 And I actually want to add to this episode is going to be sponsored by date ability Which is a dating app for people with Disabilities

 Oh, cool. I know the people over there,

you okay I told them about you so I don’t know if they reached out or whatever but um But yeah, so I really liked

We had a chat like, oh no, they’re great. We had a chat like a year and a bit ago when they were first starting

Cool.

yeah, they’re good people over there. Yeah, they’re really trying to change the, the conversation.

yeah.   📍 One, yeah. And they’re two sisters. I, I spoke with them on a zoom and one identifies as disabled and one doesn’t, but has some, some health stuff going on too. And, um, it’s, it sounds like a really cool experience. ‘

  📍 📍 📍 📍 📍 📍 📍 Hey guys, as Andrew and I mentioned, today’s episode is sponsored by Date Ability. Date Ability is making love accessible as the only dating app designed for disabled and chronically ill people, and they welcome people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, as well as non disabled people.

Datability is disability and female founded and is available to download for free in North America. Datability Plus is available for 4. 99 per month and allows users to date more efficiently. So they’re thrilled to be able to provide a safe and inclusive platform for the world’s largest minority.

  📍 📍 📍 📍 I a hundred percent agree with you. Sex work should be legal for so many reasons.

Um. And I also agree with you, you know, the sex workers that I’ve had as clients or that I just like know in my personal life, pretty great people, you know, like they tend to be like pretty empathic and I think it’s kind of a cool skillset. Uh, and I’ve had a few, a couple of people as guests on the show as well.

Um, But it’s like they’re able to connect with anyone. And I think that’s kind of their gift in a lot of ways. Um, and so to kind of like put shame on that or like, look down on that, uh, and I actually also look at it as an extension of the work that I do. So it’s like I’m helping people with the emotional, psychological aspect of things, but There’s also a hands on aspect where it’s kind of like, okay, like, here you go.

Good luck with that. You know, so I, you know, I had a surrogate partner on here too, who is someone that we’ve, we’ve shared a client and kind of worked in a therapeutic triad, um, but there’s just so many benefits. So many.

Oh, yeah the The benefits I have of just being touched when he comes over just being touched the way that I want to be because I am I’m touched every day by careworkers and people that Take care of me. I have pretty severe disabilities. I

Mm hmm.

I can’t walk. I can’t, you know, I can’t shower. I can’t brush my teeth on my own.

I pretty much need help with everything.

Mm hmm.

so in order to do that, I’m touched by care workers, but Five or six hours a day, which I’m very thankful

That’s a lot.

that is not, yeah, that is not the kind of touch that I want necessarily. It’s touch that I need. So to have, you know, two to three hours with a worker that I genuinely want to touch me

Mm hmm.

whether or not I’m paying them, You know, they want to, they want to be there.

Mm hmm.

nice. And to be able to get that, that release of not just like a sexual release, but like an intimate release with the person that I, that genuinely wants to touch my disabled body. That is a rarity. We don’t really talk about how disabled people don’t get touched a lot.

Yeah, so let’s talk about that more like the ableism and like how that manifests. So, I mean, I think that’s one example of maybe Disabled people not getting touch as much and able bodied people maybe not wanting to touch or not knowing what to do or being Intimidated or not knowing what it’s okay to ask or what it’s not okay to ask

Yeah. Um, I think the ableism comes out of fear. They’ve, we’ve been taught for, hundreds of years that engaging with a disabled person means you’re dirty, means you’re wrong, means you’re gonna get a disease,

Oh

you’re going to Pass a disease on to your child. All the pseudoscience from like the, you know, from centuries ago that isn’t true.

Mm hmm.

and so all of that gets distilled into public perception of disability that hasn’t really changed much. Our attitudes are still driven by fear because we don’t want to say the wrong thing, which means we don’t say anything at all. And so I, I get that, but I encourage people to ask the silly questions.

Like to obviously don’t go up to a disabled person right away and be like, what’s wrong with you? Don’t do that. But like. Have a conversation,

obvious. Yes

yeah, you will, you’ll be surprised, uh, but have a conversation with the person about like, hey, so I want to learn more about your disability. Can we talk about that?

That gives the disabled person in the agency to be like, no, we can’t. Thank you so much. Goodbye. Or like, sure. I’ll, yeah.

Right that makes sense like consent which I talk about a lot here

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, but when it comes to sex, like we’re already afraid of sex before you put disability into it. And then when you add disability on top of that, people are just terrified.

So I, I love meeting. the scared people because I get to show them that, you know, sex and disability can be okay. Sex and disability can be fun. It can be different. And so like my worker, when I first met him, he had never been with a disabled guy before. That was really hot for me because I got to like show him in real time.

They’re like, Oh, you don’t have to be afraid of this. Like, I’m not gonna, it’s not going to be scary. Like, and it was

do this work though. Like, like part of me is wondering, like, okay, like you’re disabled and you’re comfortable and you’re okay with people asking you questions and you’re okay, like kind of teaching someone the ropes, like with your worker. But, yeah. Maybe not everyone is going to want to,

yeah. And that’s the right. And so like, They’re allowed to say, fuck you, don’t ask me this. But I think, and this is my personal opinion, I think that like, that’s a valid stance for them to take. I understand the fatigue of constantly having your body questioned, I get that. But I think there needs to be, we need to learn how to build a bridge.

between non disabled folks and able bodied folks. There has to be a bridge, and in order to build the bridge, we, I believe, that we as disabled folks have to give a little bit. So, yeah, they’re gonna ask us ableist fucking questions, and yeah, it’s gonna be fucking annoying, but if we’re gonna teach them anything, and help them cross over the bridge, we have to let them ask the silly questions.

Right. Right. And that’s very gracious of you, but I think it also effective, right? Like if you’re really thinking about what does an effective solution to ableism look like in the long run, like I think you’re right, it has to be a bridge where everyone works together.

Has to be, it has to be connected. And so like my, my, in the intro, you know, I, I ran a sex toy company, which is now

I want to hear about that. Yeah. That sounds fun. Okay, no longer

yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s no, it’s no longer happening just because money and investors and we couldn’t raise enough. And

okay.

so it’s, it’s dead in the, it’s dead in the water, but I can talk about what the, the reason I brought that up is because my sister and I ran it together and she is, She’s non disabled, and I’m disabled, and in our working relationship over those four years, we had to build a lot of bridges to understand each other.

We had to work through all of our stuff. She had a bunch of ableism, and I had a bunch of misunderstandings about how, you know,

Even though like you guys grew up together and she knew you really well you still had to work through a lot of that

well, the thing about that is, like, we never, you know, you may have grown up, you may have grown up with your siblings, I’m not sure, but I’m I’m

I have one and

assume that, okay, so you grew up with your sibling. I’m sure you never sat around the dinner table and said, Hey, sibling, how do you jerk off?

correct

Like, and so,

That’s

we started working on this, Yeah, when we started working on the toy together, Like, I had done that documentary that you mentioned in the

Mm hmm.

And in the documentary I talk about using, I talk about, You know, masturbation and how it’s hard for me to masturbate. And she goes, Oh, I never, I never realized that about you.

And I was like, well, why would you, I would, you and I would never talk about that.

Right, right.

so then one day we were talking about it and she was like, well, aren’t there toys for you? And I said, no, none of them are really accessible to me because of the dexterity of my hands. I’ll show my hands to the viewing audience.

I have pretty severe CP in my hands. So the idea of holding a tiny rabbit or like a, a sleeve, it’s just too hard. So she said, well. You know, we were talking about it some more, and I explained all this to her. And she said, well, do you want to make a toy together? And at first, we were both like, Hmm, do we want to make a family, like, company around a sex toy?

Weird. But then we, we really quickly realized that like, Oh, people with hand limitations, They, they’re people with arthritis, They’re people with surgeries, They’re people with I can’t even remember some of the other stuff we, we had researched, but there’s, there’s hundreds of thousands of people worldwide, hundreds of millions worldwide who, who can’t self pleasure.

So we realized it’s not just make Andrew a toy so Andrew can jerk off. It’s like, we can make a toy for the world. And then, you know, we launched right smack dab at the beginning of COVID, which means everything was fucked. And it was super hard for us to get. funders and investors. And it was hard because she lives in Australia and I live here.

So it, we were doing it like cross country. It was a whole, it was a whole

it’s like, based on all the factors you’ve described, it’s like an absolute miracle that you guys even got this company to exist.

yeah, like I’m very, I’m so, so proud of it that it’s, that even though we didn’t make it, even though we didn’t make a toy, even though all we did was a prototype, like I’m very, very proud of it.

yeah, I mean, even people hearing that, I think just to know that, like, this is a need. Did you ever watch Grace and Frankie? Because they had a sex toy company that was, like, for older people.

I did.

Yeah. And I

did. My, my mom is, is this, my mom is a senior lady and she was the minute that it was funny. Cause when, when we launched our toy, that show had just launched too. And so every time that she talked about the toy, she was like, it’s like Grace and Frankie. And we were like, no, it’s cooler than that.

But like, all right, thanks.

Um, those, yeah, I think there is just a need for more of that and more awareness, and I, I mean, you mentioned some of the factors of ableism, I also think there’s just like an othering, you know, of people with disability, that it’s kind of like, they’re not seen as sexual. I think

Well, did you know that up and up until 50 years ago in, in pretty much all of America, we had something called the ugly laws, which meant that. Anyone that looked deformed on the street could be arrested.

I’m sorry,

how they look.

I’m gonna like literally Google this right now, that’s insane.

yeah, yeah. I think it was 1869 to 1974, I’m pretty sure.

Um,

Oh, my God. So it was, there was laws in the United States that prohibited people with disabilities or diseases from appearing in public from the 1860s to the 1970s. Holy crap.

yeah. So, where do you think that othering came from? Like, the, that’s where it came from. And, and, the othering, the othering also came from pseudoscientists, uh, in, in that time. Saying that if you have sex with a disabled person, you will have disease. You’re gonna have. You know, you’re not going to have all this crap that

Mm hmm.

but that has persisted in, into our world today.

And so like, can you, can you believe that only 50 years ago, that law was still on the books? Like what? Okay,

because there’s lots of fucked up things that I’ve heard about the government. But yeah, it’s pretty crazy. It’s Yeah, I

It’s

Where to begin, but uh, yeah,

that, that that’s part of where the other, I believe that’s where the other end comes from

yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

a lot. And I think people are just afraid. They’re just scared. And so you have to give, which is why I love the work I do. You have to give them a space to be afraid. So I love talking to people and, and asking them like, what about disability scares the shit out of you?

Go like, what about it? It says, what, what’s so scary? Are you afraid that you’re going to hurt somebody? Are you afraid that I’m going to give you what I have? Are you afraid that people are going to look down on you because you have interest in a disabled person? Like.

there’s a lot

What are you really afraid of? I didn’t think it’s all of those things together.

And so, the work that I do. Like I did a video with my sex worker. A porn with my sex worker.

Oh

With the express point of like. Yeah, with the express point of like, I want you to, I want the audience to see this, so that when they’re, when they’re thinking, oh no, how do I fuck this cute disabled guy, what do I do?

There’s a, there’s literal video evidence of that, of how that’s possible.

Yeah. And it, and it is interesting. I think for me, um, I definitely grew up feeling like it would be weird if I was attracted to a disabled person or that would be like frowned upon in some, in some mysterious, unstated way, if that makes sense, because I think a lot of this is like unspoken or hinted at, or like yeah, You

oh yeah,

but yeah, I did, there was a couple, couple years ago, I, I wound up being like, oh yeah, I could be kind of attracted to this guy in a wheelchair.

And it was, for me, I think attraction is more based on like energy than, um,

yeah.

than like the physical body. Not that the physical body has like zero to do with it, but, you know, um, yeah. I was talking to a client, uh, earlier today and we were talking about. Cause she was like, well, I don’t know if I’m attracted to like penises.

I’m like, I don’t know if anyone’s like attracted to be, I’m not saying no one is, but penises, I don’t think that’s like the first thing your mind always goes to. It could just be like, this person is cute. I like looking at their face. They are enjoyable to be around. And then maybe at some point the penis crosses your mind, but it doesn’t always have to be like, I am attracted to genitalia, you know? So

as a queer guy, sometimes, you know,

yeah,

guys, and I’m totally open to dating a trans man as well, of course, but like, typically, typically what we were, what we were taught, well not taught, but what we, what we were socialized was like, the dick is really important, it’s an important part of like, queerness, and so yes, sometimes, you’re like, hmm, I wonder what his dick looks like, then I’m gonna think about that, but yeah.

Not all the time, and I think our preoccupation with what’s in people’s pants, or whether or not what’s in their pants works the way we expect it to, that’s ridiculous. Like, like, maybe you could meet somebody in the wheelchair with the biggest dong in the world, but maybe it doesn’t work the way you want it

Mm hmm.

or doesn’t work the way you expect it to, and maybe you can still be with them intimately without it being, you know, a huge issue.

Right. Right. And I mean, I think what we’re talking about is just getting it so many layers. You know, I think a lot of why I do the work that I do is because I think sexuality in general still kind of exists somewhat in the shadows and there’s all these like scripts and like programmed ideas that we have that are just inaccurate.

And I think you’re doing kind of like even deeper layer of that by adding in disability and focusing on, um, the intersection of sex, disability, and queerness. And it’s like, oh, there’s another Corner of we’re like, we’re, we’re ignorant. We’re in the shadows or we’re not even like understanding that aspect of how we’re programmed.

And so it’s like, that’s what I want to encourage people to do. Who are listening is like to think about where do I have bias? What messages have I been given? How do I actually want to show up? Right. What if, what if you’re,

And I would

part of your body stops working in the next year? Right. What if your partner is does you have to be able to

not, not like, not like, what if, like, what are you going to do when it happens? What are you, what’s your plan for

Right.

Cause guess what friends? It will like, and I would, I would add on to that, like, I would add on to that, that list you just, just said. I I would add that, what are you going to do when it’s your turn?

, I think when someone is already in love with someone already knows them, and then a disability happens, you’re not going to other someone that you already know and are in love with. I think you just need to realize that, like, if you meet somebody with a disability, like, There’s still like a full human who can like be funny and also be annoying and also like have great ideas and also Self sabotage and you know, it’s

I mean, that’s You’re right.

Yeah.

You’re right. But, but I, I’ve had, I’ve had guests on my show who told me that people have left them because they got sick. People have left

Oh, yeah.

they got disabled. People have not. So like people are fucked. And I think we need, we need to, I think we need,

But just the other people not us

I don’t know.

I mean, we’re fucked too, but probably different

Know I’m joking. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. But I think, you know, I think we have to recognize that this is a conversation we’re not having because we’re afraid. This is a conversation we’re not having because we don’t know what’s in it. I don’t, my answer to that is it’s okay that you don’t know. Try anyway. Learn anyway. Ask questions anyway.

It’s alright. Um,

I think you’re right like be uncomfortable and

yeah, exactly, exactly. To that, you know, as a sex therapist, I wondered, do you have any burning questions about sex and disability that you maybe would want to ask a person right now? Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I don’t know that I do. I guess my perspective on it is like, it’s just a case by case thing. Like, every disability is different. Every person is different. You need to like, Build a relationship with someone as a human first. I mean, you could just jump right into bed, but you know, generally speaking, you’re probably going to get to know them a little bit and then you need to communicate and it might be uncomfortable and you might say the wrong things, but I don’t know.

Is there any, is there anything else you think I shouldn’t ask?

, I think you’re right. It is case by case. I think that. I think that the fear shouldn’t stop you from trying it out. But

Mm hmm.

and I would also urge, you know, if it is, if a disabled listener is listening, I would urge them to Again, like I said earlier, have a bit of grace. I know it’s fucking annoying when they ask about our bodies, but, if you want somebody to really get in there and learn and understand, they’re gonna have uncomfy questions for you, and, and, we need to find a way to answer them with, without saying that everyone’s an ableist all the time, because that’s not gonna help anything.

I find that a lot of disabled people that I Follow and see do activism their knee jerk reaction is well, you’re an ableist. Fuck you. And then they then they shut it down It was well if we shut down if we shut down that conversation without without Allowing someone to learn they don’t want to learn anymore

Yeah. I couldn’t agree with you more. I think it also your perspective, I also think speaks to maybe your level of healing. I don’t know if you’ve done a lot of like therapy or personal growth or if you just naturally have a pretty wise lens on things. But I think activism in general like means well, but I think sometimes when people are still like unhealed or in their anger, they’re maybe not always focused on like what is most effective and they’re more just focused on being pissed off.

Yeah.

and you’re saying really mad and then all the people that All the people that support you. Yeah good for you

Yeah.

I’m not saying that’s not the right way to go. I’m saying that it can be really hard to move the needle forward, which is why, like, I constantly want to have these conversations.

I love talking to people who are unaware because it gives them a chance to learn. I do a, I do a series on my show. Disability After Dark called, What Would Happen If You Became Disabled Tomorrow? And I ask, typically, uh, non disabled people, typically porn stars, I’ll ask, like, big porn stars, like, Hey, what would happen to your sex life if you were a wheelchair user tomorrow?

And I get them to really interrogate, like, what, how their life would change, and you, you, you see, you see them be all nervous and all uncomfortable, and I love, I love it, because they get uncomfortable, and I get to walk them through. With a bit of kid gloves, then it’s okay.

Oh my God. You sound like you’d be such a good coach. Do you do coaching with people?

I, I would do, Hey, listen, if you want to pay me, I’ll do go to any, like, let

Okay. Andrew is now on staff.

I, I

if you want an appointment.

amazing. Amazing.

Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a great question though. I think we have a little delay. Um, like if I was in a wheelchair, like how would, how would I go about my sex life? It’s like, yeah, you’re like, oh, fuck, like that. That has a lot of implications, right? It’s

I love asking that because then we do have it in like, cause I can hear myself after I say the, after I say what I’m saying, but, I, I think that, you know, I, I think that these questions are important, and I think by me asking them and opening up a safe space for these people to, to confront their own fear, confront their ableism, confront their bias, without saying, if you, if you name this, I’m gonna shame you, I think that feels safer for them.

yeah. Very much so. It’s just, it’s impressive that you’re able to hold that space. ’cause I know not everyone can, but, um, yeah, it’s, it does. I’m thinking now about, yeah, like, okay, yeah. Where, where would I have to live and what would my social life be like if I was in a wheelchair and, you know, how often would I be able to get in a car?

If ever you want to come on the show and do an hour where we just play that game,

Yeah.

more than welcome.

Okay, cool. That would actually be really fun. Um, yeah, I would love to do that. I think it’s just important to question things, you know, and so one of the, actually the first like sex therapy book I read was Sexual Intelligence by Marty Klein and he talks about having to like reevaluate like what our sort of expectations are for our sex life.

It’s kind of like what you’re saying is like our bodies will change. It’s not a matter of if, but when and how. And he’s like, we have to re evaluate that and there’s Another great book called Magnificent Sex, um, by Peggy Kleinplatz that’s really great. It’s like all the reasons I’m a sex therapist, basically.

Um, and she talks about how sex basically gets better when you get older and maybe your body is not functioning the way it used to. And I thought that was so interesting. So, so all of it points to maybe we’re too hung up on the physical performance. And maybe we’re missing some of the other aspects.

Like, I’ll be really blunt, because we’re on a sex show, and I’m the guest, so I can pretty much do whatever I want. So, like, sometimes I have, sometimes I have premature ejaculation,

Mm hmm.

sometimes I’ll come really, really quickly, and I have to tell you, the amount of shame that I hold around that is, like, Incredibly big, but I remember one night my sex worker came over and he like touched my shoulder and I came because I was excited that I was going to have a session and I remember being so upset and he was like, no, no, I’ll still stay, I’ll still stay over and we’ll watch a TV show.

It’ll be fine. And it was so nice to not have to worry about the performance and to just have somebody there who wanted to be there. Like that was really, that was really nice and so sweet. And it made me. I still have a fuck ton of shame around my, around that part of my experience,

part of me, though, is thinking it’s kind of amazing. Like, if someone could touch my shoulder and I could come, like, that’s kind of also a superpower.

yeah, like it’s funny. That’s what he, that’s when I, cause sometimes I’ll do it and I’ll text him and be like, Oh, I just, you know, had a premature regulation. I, I feel weird. And he’ll be like, it’s really awesome that you can think of me and come. That’s pretty cool. So like, that’s,

That is pretty cool.

trying to reframe it.

Yeah.

That’s, like, one of my life

it in my brain. It’s like something.

Life goal is like a touchless, a touchless orgasm. It’s literally written somewhere that that’s a life goal for me.

yeah.

Well, not sleeping. I have to be awake. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah. Okay. But I think even that, like a lot of people don’t know that, you know, that like, that’s even possible. And to me, like, I get what you’re saying. We’re like, okay, I don’t want it to be like, That easy, um, to come, or I want, you know, I want to engage more maybe, and I get that too. But to me, it’s also kind of like, our mind is so powerful and like, that is kind of amazing.

Like I’ll be blunt again. It happened this morning. I was watching I was watching a porn 20 seconds of porn and I was I my body released then and initially I was like, I’m annoyed. This is annoying.

Mm hmm.

But then I was like, that’s pretty cool. Like that. I can watch I can get so stimulated and so excited by something that I’m seeing that my body will just

Yep. Yeah. I think our bodies and our minds are amazing and I feel like we just like usually only scratch the surface. Um,

Yeah.

, back to the Marty Klein thing and the Peggy Kleinblatt’s books. Um I actually think it’s kind of a disservice to ourselves, like if, and I’ve worked with these clients, so if you have two people where you’re, they’re like, sex has always been easy, and it should just be like natural, and you shouldn’t have to like work at it, and you should just, you know, and then when it, something happens, like cancer, or, um, a disability, or just like, Depression, you know, whatever it is.

Um, they’re kind of like, Ugh, now I have to work at it. I shouldn’t have to do this. And I think that, like, that, like,

you always should have been working at it.

mean, yes. And also, like, that attitude is what’s gonna ruin your sex life. More so than the physical limitations. Yeah.

Oh totally and so like, you know my attitude around me coming too early initially was like, oh fine I’m still I still get hung up on it and I have to be reminded like And I love the idea of like, you know, when that happens to you, that doesn’t mean the encounter has to be over. That doesn’t mean that you,

Hmm.

can enjoy what’s happening.

And so I think, you know, with my book, but, but, but the internalized ableism that I would tell myself was, Oh, of course this would happen to you. You’re the disabled guy.

Yeah.

out of that, getting away from that, like, of course this is happening to you, the disabled guy, that’s, that’s really hard, the, the internalized voice, the ableism that I, that I feed myself, can sometimes be worse than the rest of the world.

I think that’s kind of the case for most of us, for like most struggles that we face.

Yeah.

Yeah. It’s like first there isn’t, this is like what I’ve learned about trauma, not through doing trauma training, but just through working with people and myself. Um. It’s like, if we’re victimized in some way, or oppressed in some way, it’s like, there’s an actual occurrence, and then that occurrence passes, but it’s stuck with us mentally, and then we kind of repeat it internally with ourselves, and then that’s

Over and over and over again. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and that’s the healing work to kind of undo, which, you know. I complain about as well, and it is lifelong, and we’re never done, and it can be really annoying, but keep doing it. That’s my thought.

Exactly.

Mm hmm. Um, this has been so lovely chatting with you. Uh, I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Uh, I would love to come on your show, so I’m going to take you up on that for sure. Um, where can people

Yeah, yeah, we’ll set it up. They

yeah, if people are also like, I love Andrew. This guy’s great. Like where can they find you?

AndrewGurza.Com. I, I can’t speak about my book too much, but I can say it’s coming out in 2025. Uh, so soon I’ll have a book called Notes from a Queer Cripple where I regale you with all my sexual sexual stories. Um, and that’s what the kind of that book’s about. And then I’m really active on Instagram.

They can go to AndrewGurza6 where I. where I post daily about my disability experience. They can of course download my award winning podcast, Disability After Dark, wherever you get podcasts. I release twice a month, so I’d love to, if you want to binge listen to a new show, that’s where you should go.

Okay. And we’ll link to all of that in the show notes too. So go check them out. Um, all right. Thank you so much, Andrew and listeners. We will catch you next Monday. Bye everybody.

  Thank you for listening to the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast. Got a question about spicing things up in the bedroom? Find the answers you’re looking for in my Dirty Talk Guide, a free resource for my podcast listeners. Grab yours now at heathershannon. co forward slash dirty talk. Again, that’s heathershannon.

co forward slash dirty talk. And be sure to tell your partner or friends because everyone has something they would like to ask a sex therapist.