078: Exploring Sexual Fantasies with Artemisia De Vine
Artemisia De Vine [00:00:03]:
You have to understand how the mind, what role the mind plays in sex. You really do. And if you’re going to be a good practitioner of the erotic arts, you have to understand not just how the body responds. There’s lots and lots of people teaching how the body responds. And you can learn. You can learn that.
Heather Shannon [00:00:24]:
This is the Ask a sex therapist podcast helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to ask a sex therapist. Hello, my loves. I am here with another amazing guest episode. And this one. You guys actually kind of requested this one in our Instagram broadcast channel, sexual fantasies. This is a super fun topic.
Heather Shannon [00:01:02]:
Probably one of just my personal favorite things to talk about in general. And let me introduce our lovely and very knowledgeable guest. So Artemisia Divine is the sexual fantasy expert who teaches the world’s leading sexperts the meaning of our sexual fantasies and how to bring them out of our heads and into our beds. Author of upcoming book the Spirituality of the Surprising Wisdom of sexual fantasies, certified somatic sexologist with a BA in anthropology and former sex worker and professional dominatrix, Artemisia is offering a groundbreaking new theory. Understand how stories work and you understand why we have sexual fantasies and how to create powerful, real life, transformative sexual experiences that satisfy the real desire behind the story symbolism. This sounds amazing. So welcome, Artemisia. I’m so excited to have you.
Heather Shannon [00:01:59]:
And am I pronouncing your name right?
Artemisia De Vine [00:02:01]:
You’re doing a perfect job. That’s excellent. Thank you so much for having me. This is my favorite topic, so we’re going to have some fun.
Heather Shannon [00:02:11]:
I was guessing that it was up there for you, so yeah, I would love to hear more. And I did cheat and listen to one of the previous podcasts you’ve been on, so I know a little bit of the backstory, but how did you even, like, start to go down this path in life?
Artemisia De Vine [00:02:29]:
Well, don’t we always teach what we need to learn?
Heather Shannon [00:02:33]:
It’s true. It’s true.
Artemisia De Vine [00:02:35]:
I was afraid of my sexual fantasies. How on earth do you make sense of our weird and wonderful minds? My sexual fantasies, they began. And this is actually really common. So if this was you, you’re normal. My sexual fantasies actually began earliest as about age five. And this does not mean that I was ready for sex with other people at all. This does mean that my eroticism was developing as I was developing as my muscles were developing as my, my personality was developing. And initially I didn’t feel any fear that I had this sense that you don’t talk about this thing.
Artemisia De Vine [00:03:18]:
Right. Especially since my early sexual fantasies were of being tied up to a cross, no less. I didn’t know anything about having and being used by a boy in my class and his older brother who was in grade six. I was in kindergarten.
Heather Shannon [00:03:39]:
Wow. And this, you weren’t like, exposed to porn really early, like, nothing like that?
Artemisia De Vine [00:03:47]:
No, I was cut off from the world in an extremist christian situation.
Heather Shannon [00:03:52]:
Oh, fascinating.
Artemisia De Vine [00:03:53]:
Really? So the cross that I was tied to was the religious cross.
Heather Shannon [00:03:59]:
Interesting. So, I mean, I don’t know how much you’re willing. Are we. Can we go there and dissect your own fantasy a little bit? Like, because it seems like I get asked a lot, you know, where, like, why do I feel this way? Or why am I turned on by this? Or, you know, why do I have this fantasy? And, you know, sometimes we can kind of figure some of it out. But the way you talked about it in your bio and just what I’ve heard, it almost sounds like dream symbolism. You know, like, we can learn to kind of decode this for ourselves. So how did you decode your own fantasies?
Artemisia De Vine [00:04:35]:
Well, I’d have to actually back up a little bit before. And we’ll full circle and answer that question a little bit later because I have to introduce a new way of thinking about fantasies before it’s going to even make sense for you. Right. Okay, cool. You asked the question, how did I get into this? Well, first of all, I was afraid and I experienced desire as something that was people wanted to take from me for their own benefit rather than something was for my benefit to start with. I was, you know, I grew giant boobs of doom by the age of twelve. Boobs of doom?
Heather Shannon [00:05:16]:
That’s so sad.
Artemisia De Vine [00:05:17]:
I love the boobs of doom. Like, you know, they. Okay, do you remember the temple of doom? I think it was Indiana Jones with the big red.
Heather Shannon [00:05:24]:
Oh, yeah.
Artemisia De Vine [00:05:30]:
Oh, that’s hilarious. Okay.
Heather Shannon [00:05:33]:
Older booms of doom.
Artemisia De Vine [00:05:35]:
Yes. Well, later on I embraced it. Initially, it was like something someone else was taking from me. Later on, like there was a crisis point. I could have suppressed this part of myself because it was causing me pain and I didn’t understand it. And I was fantasizing about ways that was very sexually exciting for me, but were the exact opposite of how I wanted to be treated in real life. So in real life, people were taking from me in ways that harmed me. They just saw me from my physicality that people hanging out car windows, yelling lewd comments at me just as I’m trying to walk down the street to buy milk.
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:10]:
Right. Because I had these breasts.
Heather Shannon [00:06:13]:
Yeah. Not fun.
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:15]:
That’s not what I wanted.
Heather Shannon [00:06:16]:
And really not okay when you’re twelve, right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:20]:
And adults doing this to a twelve year old. And so I experienced this as something that was unsafe in my body. And yet I was sexually excited by the idea of two men tying me up and using me and enjoying my body. What? Why am I.
Heather Shannon [00:06:40]:
Why?
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:40]:
What are you doing? Brain.
Heather Shannon [00:06:43]:
So were you like excited but also disturbed by your fantasy at the same time?
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:48]:
Yes. And for years. For years I would try and avoid it and suppress it. I’m afraid. I’m afraid of these sexual fantasies. I’m really confused by them. I could have shut down. Yeah.
Artemisia De Vine [00:06:58]:
And I. And that. I remember a crisis point, crying my eyes out in a park as the sun was going down and the mosquitoes were starting to bite me. And I had a choice and I was. Yeah, this is my yelling at God point. Like, why have you made us like this? What is wrong with you? I don’t understand what’s happening. I’m trying to love these people and they can’t love me. They’re just treating me in these awful ways.
Artemisia De Vine [00:07:26]:
Why? You know why? And it seemed like sexuality was why they were treating me so badly. So I could have then gone, okay, I’m going to suppress this part of myself and stop feeling my own, for sure.
Heather Shannon [00:07:40]:
And I think a lot of people do that.
Artemisia De Vine [00:07:42]:
They do, don’t they? Or I can run into this, I can run towards this, I can. I can go and work out, how does this work? Why do we think like this? What is going on? What is the erotic psyche all about? What? How does desire work? And that led to a lifetime of me experimenting, exploring, studying, learning all about how sex works. I decided to run towards it, not away from it. And that led to all sorts of adventures. Me having an awful lot of sex for a start, and all kinds of sex.
Heather Shannon [00:08:26]:
Okay.
Artemisia De Vine [00:08:27]:
And learning from some of the world’s amazing sex spurts, including Betty Martin, who’s going to be a guest or has already been a guest.
Heather Shannon [00:08:36]:
Yeah. Thank you for introducing us. That was an awesome one.
Artemisia De Vine [00:08:43]:
But lots of people like that. I learned spiritual sex, I learned kinky sex. I worked in sex shops, I did all sorts of things. But I ended up the most powerful, powerful thing. Even beyond becoming qualified as a sexologist, a semantic sexologist, was the twelve years I spent as a full time sex worker and professional dominatrix being paid to become people’s sexual fantasies. Oh, my goodness. Does that teach you a thing or two about how the original?
Heather Shannon [00:09:15]:
I would think so, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. Like, I had a client who was a dominatrix before, and it was interesting to me, like, the parallels between our work. You know, I’m like, you’re really, like, providing a service and helping people with self acceptance and with having a safe space. And there’s, there’s a lot of psychology to it.
Artemisia De Vine [00:09:40]:
Yes. If you really want mind blowing sex, you have to understand how the mind, what role the mind plays in sex. You really do. And if you’re going to be a good practitioner of the erotic arts, you have to understand not just how the body responds. There’s lots and lots of people teaching how the body responds. And you can learn, you can learn that and you can learn technique of how to tie someone up. Right. How to give a great blowjob, really, and how your heart works as well.
Artemisia De Vine [00:10:13]:
But what’s missing is how does the mind work? How, like, there’s not as much conversation about this at all. So that’s what I became really fascinated with, and I wanted to understand more. And I at first didn’t know what I was doing, to be honest. I just was like, I had no idea. I thought I. Cause I’d had a lot of sex that I knew all about sex until I did sex work. And I went, oh, no, I really didn’t know.
Heather Shannon [00:10:40]:
Interesting. So look, what did you learn from sex work that you hadn’t learned from just having sex?
Artemisia De Vine [00:10:48]:
Okay. For a start, sex work changes the container in which you’re going to have your sex. So when you’re having casual sex with somebody or partnered sex with somebody, you’re trying to meet two people’s needs, needs at the same time.
Heather Shannon [00:11:05]:
True.
Artemisia De Vine [00:11:05]:
When someone pays money, you’re actually focused 100% on creating an experience for them and understanding what they need in their psyche. And when I did that, very interesting things began to happen. I would sit them down on my red velvet couch. At first I didn’t know what I was doing, but later on, when I got more sophisticated and worked out my system, I’d sit them down on my red velvet couch, and I’d have a little tea ceremony with them, and I’d ask them all about their sexual fantasies and their past peak experiences, and I would listen to how their mind created safety for them to be able to let go. And so I’m not just listening to what I’m listening to what excites them. Because that I absolutely have to trust that they desire their fantasy. But I’m listening to the underlying story underneath it. And then when I started to create realignment experiences based on that, very interesting things happened.
Artemisia De Vine [00:12:10]:
They got to experience their own turn ons from beginning to end without having to try and focus on pleasing anybody else. And when that happened, they started entering into deeply profound erotic states of consciousness. People who’d been playing for years in the BDsm scene had been seeing professional doms even for years started saying to me, oh my God, I had no idea I could feel this way. What even is this?
Heather Shannon [00:12:41]:
That’s good when you get them to that point.
Artemisia De Vine [00:12:45]:
Very exciting, isn’t it? Oh my God. It was such a fun thing for me to play that role. Isn’t it like being the one that introduced somebody to some, awakened them or be part of them? That gave me.
Heather Shannon [00:12:54]:
That’s pretty cool.
Artemisia De Vine [00:12:56]:
That got me right into the zone and kept me motivated, right. So I would keep stumbling across these really profound erotic states of consciousness. And there’s a whole umbrella of them, there’s a whole variety of them. And we would cry. A complete stranger that we just met 2 hours ago. Our guards were completely down. We could. And it felt like.
Artemisia De Vine [00:13:22]:
I don’t know whether we really. If there’s life beyond this life, but it felt like their everyday personality was out of the driver’s seat and mine too. And I could see in their eyes the part of them that seemed to have lived forever and would live forever. It felt like I was here at their soul, not their personality, their everyday personality. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what happens when the gods are down.
Heather Shannon [00:13:50]:
Yeah, it fits very much with. So I’m an internal family systems therapist. And it fits very much with ifs where we talk about self energy, which would be that timeless soul quality of like, who we are on the deepest level. And then we have our parts, which I really think of as kind of going with like, the earthly plane and our physical body and defense mechanisms and protective aspects. So it sounds like you were really facilitating getting people into their self energy, which is amazing.
Artemisia De Vine [00:14:23]:
Yes, exactly. That’s the best. And I haven’t studied the internal family systems, but people kept, who keep coming and getting coaching from me keep saying, oh, you’ve got some similarities with.
Heather Shannon [00:14:36]:
For sure.
Artemisia De Vine [00:14:37]:
Check it out.
Heather Shannon [00:14:39]:
I think truth is truth. You know, like whatever. Whatever words you use or however you come at it, that, you know, truth is truth. So you probably don’t probably don’t need.
Artemisia De Vine [00:14:47]:
To study it, because you probably already know a lot of it. Well, my model is metaphor and story model. So I thought of it as. And I teach people to think of it as. We have different organs of the psyche. So we have just like you have your heart, that does a different job to your lungs, that does a different job to your liver, but yet it makes up one system, and they all need each other. The psyche has different organs, and each has its own genius and its own blind spots and limitations. So you need to know which organ of the psyche is speaking so you can know if it’s talking about its genius or its blind spot.
Artemisia De Vine [00:15:25]:
Right.
Heather Shannon [00:15:26]:
That is interesting. With the genius and the blind spot, that’s like adding a layer. Okay.
Artemisia De Vine [00:15:31]:
Oh, yes. Right. Desire, for instance. Desire is not known for its wisdom when it comes to desire is this force that makes us want things. So let’s imagine that’s an organ of the psyche, this part of us that sends the wanting. Right? Yeah. Desire can send wanting. Like, maybe not doesn’t have great consequences for your everyday life.
Artemisia De Vine [00:15:53]:
Like, for instance, it might spend all of your tax money on hats or eat all of the chocolate and none.
Heather Shannon [00:16:00]:
Of the Brussels sprouts, for instance.
Artemisia De Vine [00:16:03]:
Correct.
Heather Shannon [00:16:04]:
I for sure have both of those parts.
Artemisia De Vine [00:16:08]:
So it’s blind spotted, as it does not know that the outside world exists. It lives in the imaginarium inside of you and thinks symbolically. But once you understand its logic, it’s a freaking genius at changing your internal state from one thing to another. It knows how to get your guards to come down and open you up. That’s its job. That’s what I learned from sex work. If I listen to people’s sexual desire, it knows the way. It knows the way.
Artemisia De Vine [00:16:40]:
That’s so interesting. So I started hearing sexual fantasies as a love letter from desire, telling me the map, right? Showing me going, okay, this is a story I’m sending, and it’s a story that’s talking to another organ of the psyche, and that’s the part that puts up all the guards. And there’s different models for understanding what that is. One of the easiest ways to think of it as ego. It’s just that part that creates a sense of self. Right. Your self identity, your self worth. And it really gets very hypervigilant about protecting your social status.
Heather Shannon [00:17:23]:
Yeah.
Artemisia De Vine [00:17:25]:
So it’s really about creating and protecting self. And when you’re. And that. And so imagine that when you’re. You’re in your. You’re in a castle wall, and that’s your ego and the walls are keeping you safe, and they’re giving you a defined boundary and an edge so you know where you finish and somebody else begins. You know that I’m separate to you because I’ve got an ego. I know.
Artemisia De Vine [00:17:50]:
I now know. I now remember to lock the car door so that somebody else doesn’t take it. If I didn’t have an ego, I wouldn’t remember. Mm hmm. They’re really important.
Heather Shannon [00:18:01]:
We need those parts. We need the parts even though sometimes we resent them and the, you know, different difficulties they cause us.
Artemisia De Vine [00:18:09]:
Yeah.
Heather Shannon [00:18:09]:
We’re not trying to get rid of them.
Artemisia De Vine [00:18:11]:
No. But their blind spot is that it gets so excited about protecting and creating that sense of self that it doesn’t let you connect, keeps you in I and blocks you from getting to we that, you know. And desire is this other force that comes along and sends this love letter to your ego and says, hey, you know what? I’m, you know, come on over here. Come on. Let those guards down.
Heather Shannon [00:18:40]:
Just a little gentle coaxing, that’s all.
Artemisia De Vine [00:18:44]:
Well, it has to be strong enough to overcome our ego. So it’s not exactly weak, is it? Desires can be not known for its patience or its subtleness, really, is it? So it can be an overwhelming force, but once we learn how to be in relationship with it, we can learn how to trust it. That’s one of the things I teach people, is how to form an embodied, two way relationship with their desire so that it becomes their ally, not something they have to struggle against or fight.
Heather Shannon [00:19:13]:
I love that because I think desire gets a bad rap, actually. And I think the way you’re presenting it is very different and more spiritual. And so often we’re like, oh, and I was Buddhist for 13 years, so sometimes I think people also misinterpret Buddhism a little bit. Like, oh, desire is bad, or that means craving, or, you’re getting very graspy with something. But, yeah, it doesn’t have to be. It can also just be clarity and knowing.
Artemisia De Vine [00:19:39]:
It’s also the genius force that moves you from one state to another. Because if you don’t want to move, ego wants to keep you in your status quo where you’re comfortable. Yeah. Comfort zone.
Heather Shannon [00:19:47]:
That’s true.
Artemisia De Vine [00:19:48]:
Any transformation or adventure has to leave you to your comfort zone temporarily. Any story. Adventure, there is no story without leaving the comfort zone. That’s what a story does, right? The main character starts somewhere and then leaves their comfort zone because they have some desire or another. Like, they might. Okay, they might want to get to Las Vegas in time to win their wife back. I don’t know.
Heather Shannon [00:20:14]:
Okay, that sounds fun.
Artemisia De Vine [00:20:16]:
And the whole story really is about all of the obstacles they have to overcome in order to get there in time. But underlining story is, all of those obstacles actually create the right kind of transformation so that by the time the character gets to Las Vegas to win their wife back, they’ve transformed enough to either successfully win the wife back or become mature enough to let her go. Or, you know, they fail, and it’s a tragedy, tragic end. But the story is all about a desire driven transformation. That’s what happens. And then you reach a climax and a new. And a new status quo again. But desire is this force that creates the strength to move us from one state to another.
Artemisia De Vine [00:21:06]:
And you can think of, you can feel it yourself. Like you’re sitting perfectly comfortable in your pajamas on your couch, and you’re content. You don’t have any desires. And then suddenly, desire will arrive in your awareness. Boop. I knew that I want a pickle sandwich. I knew it. Very specific.
Artemisia De Vine [00:21:27]:
Yeah. Yes. Even the bread that I want, the brand of the cheese, everything. I know what plate is going to be on it, and I can start smelling it. I can toss it. Now I’m uncomfortable now. I don’t want to stay in the now there’s initially that little struggle. Can you feel that? No, I want to stay here.
Artemisia De Vine [00:21:43]:
It’s comfortable and it’s warm under my little blankie. Oh, but the bell with the pickle sandwich. Oh, I’d be really good. And this desire often wins. It has to be strong, right? It overcomes that resistance. So imagine you’re in your castle wall and you’re all protected. Desire is sending you a little sexual fantasy so that you can move from I to we, and sometimes even beyond that, I to we to connected to everythingness. Those oneness experiences where you feel connected with life itself.
Heather Shannon [00:22:22]:
Love it.
Artemisia De Vine [00:22:24]:
It really does happen, I tell you. Can I just read you? I used to keep a record of the things my clients would say after sessions. I’m talking about these states of consciousness that desire can take you into.
Heather Shannon [00:22:37]:
Yeah, tell us.
Artemisia De Vine [00:22:39]:
And I knew people weren’t going to believe me. The things that they’re saying sound too freaking out.
Heather Shannon [00:22:45]:
I believe you.
Artemisia De Vine [00:22:46]:
So I kept a record of all of the things that they said and wrote them down in a little diary. And here’s one of them. This was after an edging session with a ruined orgasm. So the point of the session was not even to get the climax of an orgasm. It was about to bring him really close to the edge. Really close to the edge and tease him that he was going to get it or not. And I had complete control. And he had no control over whether or not he had an orgasm.
Artemisia De Vine [00:23:15]:
And he didn’t know where I was going to go with this. And eventually bring him right to the edge when he’s going crazy. And then ruin it for him. Ruin it. So this is. And then give him post orgasm torture. So, you know, wonderfully weird and wacky fantasies, but they’re there for a reason. We’ll get to that.
Artemisia De Vine [00:23:36]:
We’ll get to that. Okay. Yeah. So this is what he said afterwards in the afterglow. He said, once you get past the horny, you become sort of like in a dream state, don’t you? Well, I did. It was mind blowing. There wasn’t a thing I could do about it. I lost track of time completely.
Artemisia De Vine [00:24:04]:
It moved from pleasure to begging for you to stop. And then beyond that again until I just surrendered. And then he hugged his freckled knees while sitting there at my feet and sucked a slice of orange that I’d given him. And I stroked his tousled ginger hair. And he continued talking. And he said, no, it’s mind blowing, really. I feel like I’m coming too from drugs, but more than that. Wow, this could really take over if I let it, actually.
Artemisia De Vine [00:24:40]:
No, no, no. Though, I don’t think it could. It doesn’t have the same pull of addiction. It has the call of home. It feels healthy like, but I want more. It’s like I found who I really am supposed to be and who I always was and was trying to find. And that’s just dude I met 2 hours ago.
Heather Shannon [00:25:10]:
But I think there is something when you’re just truly present with people, you know? And it sounds like that was really the gift you were giving them, is being truly present and in a very deep level of curiosity and understanding.
Artemisia De Vine [00:25:27]:
Oh, you’re so onto it. Yes, that’s absolutely right. And also, there is an added art form on top of that. Truly trusting their fantasies and being able to hear the logic within them and not try and live out the fantasies as it is in their mind’s eye, but to live out the psychological mechanisms within those fantasies so that their mind can let go. Because a sexual fantasy is that force that’s going to let you out past that castle wall. When you try and walk out that castle wall and let go of that ego, there’s going to be three ego guards standing on the bridge. And they’re not going to let you past until you appease them. And that is the guard that says if you are vulnerable in any way, you could be harmed.
Artemisia De Vine [00:26:20]:
If you could lose your social status, you could get laughed at, people could, you could lose face. Yeah. You know, you could make a fool of yourself. So I’m not going to let you past unless you can appease that and show me that that’s safe. And the next guard is. Yeah. Your self worth guard that says, and that’s that. That guard that’s get where you get your own, where you feel you’re valuable.
Artemisia De Vine [00:26:48]:
So I’m special because I’m. I’m muscly, I’m beautiful, I’m intelligent, I’m the fun one, I’m. Our story is around that. And if you. If you’re vulnerable and show a different side of yourself, will you still be like, are you, are you wanted? Are you really wanting that guy? You have to be convinced that, God, that you wanted or it won’t stand down. And the other one, the last guard, is the self identity guard. And that’s who you think you are and it’s linked to your values. So it’s.
Artemisia De Vine [00:27:29]:
I’m a considerate person. I’m not selfish. I can’t focus. I’m going to be. I’m a great lover, then I focus on their needs. I’m going to make them feel good. I can’t focus on my own or I’m a manly man who doesn’t have vulnerability or emotions. If I let go and receive my own pleasure and just surrender into it, that’s the same as being vulnerable.
Artemisia De Vine [00:27:55]:
I can’t do it. Right.
Heather Shannon [00:27:58]:
That makes so much sense. So, like, understanding these guards and understanding, you know, how desire works. What have you learned about sort of the origins of these fantasies and, like, where they’re really coming from?
Artemisia De Vine [00:28:15]:
Well, desire is that force that knows the exact story that those guards, it knows the password to get past the guards. And that’s what the sexual fantasy story is. It’s the exact story that we need to hear so that our ego guards will stand down and we can open to the vulnerability of connection and intimacy and pleasure and just be experienced fully in the moment. And then we can access. And when those ego guards are down, that’s when we experience that bigger sense of self, that much bigger sense of self, that soul self I was talking about that I could see in their eyes when just happened again. You know, I had thousands of clients, so I had a lot of opportunities to keep practicing this theory. And it works it really was.
Heather Shannon [00:29:15]:
And that’s so interesting. So why do you have a sense of. Why do we develop the unique? Because some people have pretty unique fantasies. Some people have maybe more common ones. Do you have any sense of that? Why would someone maybe have some more kinks or fetishes or why would somebody else enjoy more just romantic sensual intimacy?
Artemisia De Vine [00:29:43]:
I noticed that sexual fantasies are unique. Even there’s a genres of them. Like, you can say, especially as a sex worker, you see this person’s coming in. Okay, we’ve got three different crossdresses booked in this week. Okay, we’ve got two foot fetishists. Okay, we’ve got two people who want the porn star experience, and we’ve got another three who want the girlfriend experience. Like, we can see genres, okay?
Heather Shannon [00:30:08]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Artemisia De Vine [00:30:09]:
But within the genre, you cannot assume that one cross dress is the same as another. You have to listen to their story because it is the exact story their ego needs to hear, not somebody else’s. Okay. Right.
Heather Shannon [00:30:22]:
So listening.
Artemisia De Vine [00:30:25]:
Very key. Yes. Really. Listening to their fantasies and understanding the symbolism of them and the logic of them and the real desire behind the symbolism. So, for instance, let’s give you an example. So that makes sense. Yeah. For instance, we were just talking about that social status guard, right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:30:44]:
You’re going to lose your rank in society if people know you’re a sexual being. And. Yeah, we are primarily worried about that. If we’re not part of the tribe, we can’t survive. It’s a very strong thing to worry about.
Heather Shannon [00:31:02]:
Huge.
Artemisia De Vine [00:31:03]:
And depending on how you’re brought up, you’ll have different ways in which that might be a problem. But let’s just imagine you’re somebody who was brought up with the pressure to be a good girl. And good girls aren’t whores. Correct. That’s a common one.
Heather Shannon [00:31:18]:
I’m sure a lot of the listeners can relate to that one.
Artemisia De Vine [00:31:21]:
Yeah. You think?
Heather Shannon [00:31:23]:
It’s pretty much for sure. I did an episode on Good Girl syndrome.
Artemisia De Vine [00:31:30]:
Yep. It’s definitely still a pressure out there, even today, even amongst the sex positive community. Still, there it is. But the. So if you are a sexual being who owns your own desires, you risk losing your place in your social. Your social status. So let’s have a sexual fantasy then, where you are blackmailed. Okay.
Heather Shannon [00:32:00]:
So you have, like, no choice, then you’re forced into what you actually want to do.
Artemisia De Vine [00:32:05]:
Oh, yeah. All of you want to do until it’s done right. It’s not your fault. You get to stay.
Heather Shannon [00:32:14]:
Not your fault.
Artemisia De Vine [00:32:14]:
No, you’re off the hook. But see how the sexual fantasy has to include the poison and the antidote. This is my theory, this is my framework here is poisons and antidotes are included in the fantasy. And that’s what creates the alchemical reaction. If you just relive the fear alone and you try and live out a fantasy and only pick up on the part that is the black male, and don’t see how it’s also creating the perfect antidote for that, then you are going to just feel, you might get sexually excited, but you’re going to feel a bit rubbish afterwards, maybe even awful, and it’s not going to work. However, if you hear desire’s logic, not how you think it should be, listen to the fantasy. How did it neutralize that poison with an antidote and create the allow that guard to stand down? So let’s say that this person was blackmailed. I don’t know.
Artemisia De Vine [00:33:13]:
They didn’t pay the rent and they’re going to get evicted. Or a boss is, you’re going to lose your job if you don’t give the boss a blowjob. All of these things. We do not want to be treated like this in real life. So at first that does not make a lot of sense. But when you recognize that it’s a story sent to that social status card, it had to include the fear. It had to include ego’s fear. The world’s going to find out that you are a sexual being if, you know, instead of.
Artemisia De Vine [00:33:45]:
Instead of the normal double bind that we’re in. If I’m a sexual being, the world will find out and I will lose my status. This is flipped. It’s on its head. It said, you have to be a sexual being or the world will find out. Yeah, yeah, right. See how sexual fantasy, you kind of.
Heather Shannon [00:34:09]:
Get to keep your protective mechanism in a way, but also find like a loophole, basically, where you still get to be sexual.
Artemisia De Vine [00:34:17]:
Right. The social status guard gets tricked by that. It says, yes, that’s perfectly logical to my ego. Yes, perfect. Okay, I can do that. You may pass.
Heather Shannon [00:34:28]:
That makes a ton of sense to me. And actually, I wanted to circle back a little bit to what you said about, you know, if there’s a piece missing kind of in the fantasy, you might enjoy it and be turned on, but then feel like garbage afterwards. Can we talk about that a little bit more? Because that’s something I definitely see with people where they’re aroused, but then there might be shame about it or like, oh my God, why am I into this terrible thing, you know, or, this is so weird. I could never tell anyone this.
Artemisia De Vine [00:34:54]:
Yeah. Mm hmm. And then you might go and sneakily masturbate and then feel rubbish afterwards. That’s what I did for years.
Heather Shannon [00:35:01]:
Right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:35:02]:
As a teenager, I’d, like, have all these fantasies and then feel so much shame and have to shut it down completely afterwards.
Heather Shannon [00:35:08]:
Right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:35:09]:
And I didn’t understand what was going on. Yeah.
Heather Shannon [00:35:13]:
How do you get past that?
Artemisia De Vine [00:35:14]:
I see it a lot in. Even amongst really professional, really brilliant practitioners of the erotic arts, sex workers, sexologists, sex educators. I see it amongst, because there’s a trap of falling into focusing on, okay, let’s get really great consent, let’s get really great safety. Let’s agree to all of the activities. Let’s try and live out the fantasy. And there’s not a lot of focus on how do we understand what the fantasy is trying to do? And they try and they try and make the fantasy fit the logic of the wrong organ of the psyche when they try and live it out and they don’t get the antidote that they need. So a key is being able to look at the fantasy and break it down, understand its emotional aphrodisiacs, understand it as a story that’s taken you from one state to another. How did it do that? What is the key elements of this story? You don’t have to live out that story.
Artemisia De Vine [00:36:23]:
Exactly. So you know that a story is an action story because it has this element, this element and this element. And if it didn’t have those elements, it wouldn’t be an action story. But you don’t have to tell only one action story. You can tell a billion different action stories using those elements. You know that a love story has this element, this element and this element. You don’t have to just tell one love story. There are infinite love stories as long as they include these elements.
Artemisia De Vine [00:36:56]:
When you look at the sexual fantasy, there is an art form. This is what I teach my elite practitioners of the erotic arts, what to do, how to do. I teach them. How do you recognize, what are those key transformational elements in the story? Now you don’t have to live out the fantasy that’s in their mind’s eye, which often you can’t do anyway because you can’t actually fit a truck up your bottom. Like, no.
Heather Shannon [00:37:24]:
Some fantasies are not meant to happen.
Artemisia De Vine [00:37:29]:
But also, dear, there’s a big relief because that means you don’t have to look like your fantasy people either. You don’t have to go get a boob job or get some abs or like, that’s not the point. So how.
Heather Shannon [00:37:38]:
That’s actually a great point you’re bringing up, too. Like, how do you distinguish between fantasies that are kind of meant to happen and would be healthy for you to actually act out and fantasies that are best just left in your psyche?
Artemisia De Vine [00:37:50]:
Well, that’s good. Yeah. None of them are just left in your psyche. All of them have things to bring out. You don’t try because you’re not trying to live them out. Exactly. They’ve all got wisdom. They’re all exact story that our ego needs to hear.
Artemisia De Vine [00:38:06]:
They’re not instructions for how to behave in the outside world. Remember how each organ of the psyche has its genius and has its blind spots? If don’t trust desire to tell you how to do your tax, don’t trust it. How to. That’s not its role.
Heather Shannon [00:38:20]:
Right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:38:21]:
Don’t trust it for that. But it is an absolute freaking genius when it comes to telling the exact story you need to hear to be able to let go. So there is no fantasy I do not trust. And there is no fantasy that does not have key psychological elements that you can bring to life in play. And that’s what I was doing all the time. They tell me their sexual fantasy on the red velvet couch over our little tea ceremony. Then I would create a great consent container where I had freedom to explore as an erotic artist. And then I would create something that was based, that had those key elements in it.
Artemisia De Vine [00:39:01]:
But I’m using my creativity in that moment. And so they’ve got mystery and the right level of risk and safety. They’ve got excitement, and they. And at the end, they’re a mistress. How did you know? I never would have thought to do that. But that just. You saw my soul.
Heather Shannon [00:39:18]:
It hit the spot. Well, I mean, not everybody has you, because it does sound like you’re a bit of a wizard with this. So I think what I’m curious about is how can someone discern for themselves? Like, for example, if they have a cuckolding fantasy, right? That’s. That’s a common one that I see with people that maybe aren’t sure if they want to act on it, and they might have some shame about having the fantasy. And for people listening who are like, what’s a cuckold fantasy? It’s often where, you know, you want to see your female partner with another man, and you’re kind of like. And embarrassed and, like, not good enough. And maybe you’re in the corner watching and can’t participate until it’s time to clean up, and then you get to help clean up, and that’s it. So if someone has a fantasy like that and they’re like, do I actually want to do this? Do I not actually want to do this? Is this going to, like, blow up my relationship? Should I tell my partner, you know, how do they discern, like, what are those, the wisdom parts to bring forward? And what are the parts that.
Heather Shannon [00:40:22]:
Yeah, one of the parts that’s like, okay, that probably doesn’t need to really happen in real life.
Artemisia De Vine [00:40:27]:
Right. Okay, well, you don’t actually need to do that in real life in order to activate the things, but you might choose to want to because that would be a fun thing to do. But the mistake that people would make is just to live out the poison without including the antidote. So, for instance, they go, I’m super excited by seeing my wife with somebody else. I’m overcoming my self worth guard here and my social status guard here, because, you know, I’m living out my ego’s fear that I’m not manly enough to support her. Let’s just say that’s their.
Heather Shannon [00:40:59]:
Yeah, yeah.
Artemisia De Vine [00:41:00]:
I’m living out my particular fear that, you know, I can’t satisfy her and she needs someone with. And it’s often really common. The other person has more symbols of manliness, like a bigger cock or, you know.
Heather Shannon [00:41:16]:
Yes, often.
Artemisia De Vine [00:41:18]:
Yeah. It’s. It’s some idealized version of masculinity, and they don’t feel as though they have that. So they’re living out their fear that they’re not good enough and their wife is having the best time ever with somebody else. But if you look at so many of the images of cuckolding fantasies that are on line, you will see there’s an antidote in there that you absolutely have to include, or this is not going to work. There’s an image of, for instance, quite often while she’s having sex with someone else and going on about how amazing he is, this other person, her eye contact is 100% on him. She’s getting off on the reaction she’s getting from the husband. Okay.
Artemisia De Vine [00:42:11]:
You can actually cut the knife between the tension of them. So they’ve actually got this deep connection. It’s actually all for him. It’s led them to become closer, not far further away. The poison was, I’m afraid somebody else is going to be better, and that means I’m going to lose her. So he lives out the fear that somebody else is actually better, but the exact opposite end result happens where her full. Okay, attention, it’s on him. And her sexual excitement comes from the reaction he’s having.
Artemisia De Vine [00:42:47]:
If you do not include that when you try and live it out for a real. If she just goes, she goes, okay, well, you wanted me to have sex with someone else and have fun, and she goes and have sex with someone else and has fun and tells him all about it and how amazing this other person was. And there’s no antidote. He’s gonna feel all of his ego fears and no solution to it. He’s gonna.
Heather Shannon [00:43:05]:
Right.
Artemisia De Vine [00:43:06]:
So, jealous? Devastated.
Heather Shannon [00:43:10]:
Absolutely. And that makes so much sense. So it’s kind of like, are you proving a fear is true and really destabilizing yourself, or are you actually overcoming the fear? And it sounds like done right, you’re overcoming the fear.
Artemisia De Vine [00:43:24]:
So this is what I teach people is the art form of how to, first of all, how to connect with your desire compass. How do you form a new relationship with this organ of the psyche and begin to trust it and have a two way consent conversation with it? Because it does hear and it does respond. And that’s the desire compass. Then there’s the map of your sexual fantasy. Actually understand the story elements within it that include both the poisoned and the antidote so you can get past the guards. And then the third piece of that puzzle is how do you bring that to life into an actual plan. That’s the journey of play. And then have processes that I teach people over that.
Artemisia De Vine [00:44:07]:
But if you want to begin, I love that breaking. Yeah.
Heather Shannon [00:44:10]:
Where can people begin?
Artemisia De Vine [00:44:11]:
Yeah, you can go to myfantasyis.com and I’m going. I can guide you through step by step how you can start looking at some just google images of celebrities that you find attractive and breaking down why you find them more attractive in this picture than that picture. Even though physic, their physicality hasn’t changed.
Heather Shannon [00:44:37]:
What’s a fun exercise?
Artemisia De Vine [00:44:39]:
Activating in there and start to notice what poisons and antidotes are included just in their simple body language and the way that they’re presenting themselves. And then you’ve got something you can start playing with in sacks right there. You can take that on and see what happens.
Heather Shannon [00:44:58]:
I love that. I’m definitely going to sign up for that because now I’m just very curious. And tell us about your book, too. So you have the spirituality of smut book that’s coming up. What secrets are you going to be giving away in the book?
Artemisia De Vine [00:45:10]:
Well, I’m going to tell lots of stories about how I figured this out using real life, sex work examples and personal. And then explain, I’m going to show you how to do it. I’m going to give you. It’s called the divinery method because obviously my last name is Divine. But my clients named my play space in Sydney. I had a sex work play space where they could come and had different themed rooms.
Heather Shannon [00:45:40]:
Oh, love it.
Artemisia De Vine [00:45:41]:
And a cross dressing room and a central bedroom and a massage room. They had all these different spaces. And my clients themselves named it. They said, oh, it feels like when I come here, I’m not just getting off. I am. I’m divining. The erotic one said, I’m like, what are dividing you? Like, you’re looking and discovering myself. And then they called it the divinery.
Artemisia De Vine [00:46:05]:
And that just took off. It became the divinery. Oh, cool.
Heather Shannon [00:46:08]:
Okay.
Artemisia De Vine [00:46:09]:
And so this is just the method that I used in the divinery. The divinery method. Right. So I will show you that in the book. But of course, because I’m talking about the magic of stories, I will tell you lots of stories so that you.
Heather Shannon [00:46:22]:
Get to discover stories. Stories are such an important way to learn. You know, it’s something that I’ve been learning more through, like, the marketing and business world. But, you know, stories everywhere are just such a great teacher. So I love that, that the book is full of sexy stories. So that sounds fun. And then, yeah, if people are just like this artemisia lady is, she’s pretty fun. Like, where can I find more of her? Where should we send them to find you?
Artemisia De Vine [00:46:53]:
Oh, thank you. Well, signing up for the myFantasyis.com freebie will get you on my mailing list. And I love to share lots of tips on there, which is a lot better for someone who talks about sex than social media. It really is because I don’t put a lot of effort into trying to develop myself, build my social media, because it’s only a matter of time before someone wipes it all out. So really, if you want these tips that I’m teaching some of the world’s elite erotic practitioners, get yourself on my mailing list. And that lots of opportunities come along. You find out about more podcasts, you find out about more. Just all of the juicy stuff, really.
Artemisia De Vine [00:47:35]:
I’m about to send another newsletter out about breaking down another fantasy and how it works and how you’d find poison and the antidote in it.
Heather Shannon [00:47:45]:
I love it. And I want to second what Artemisia is saying is like, get on the email list because those of us, you know, I’ve been pulling back a little bit from Instagram. You know, I’m so glad to hear you’re starting a podcast. I’m totally gonna listen to that and hopefully join you on your podcast. But yeah, like, you know, podcasting is one of the few places we can speak freely and, you know, email is probably the next closest.
Artemisia De Vine [00:48:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love to have you as a guest on my podcast when I started. Cool.
Heather Shannon [00:48:16]:
I’m excited. Thank you so much for being with us. This has just been like an awesome conversation. I love how we kind of woven the spirituality aspects and the poison and the antidote and the story elements. So this has been great. Thank you so much for being here, Artemisia. And thank you everybody for listening. Listening.
Heather Shannon [00:48:35]:
Bye, friends. Thank you for listening to the Ask a sex therapist podcast. Got a question about spicing things up in the bedroom? Find the answers you’re looking for in my dirty talk guide, a free resource for my podcast listeners. Grab yours now at Heathershannon Co. Dirtytalk. Again, that’s Heathershannon Co. Dirtytalk. And be sure to tell your partner or friends because everyone has something they would like to ask a sex therapist.
