022 The Orgasm Gap with Dr. Laurie Mintz
that hierarchy drives me crazy if you orgasm from penetration you’re on top right penetration plus clitoral stimulation neck. Okay, just clitoral stimulation. It’s like this stupid ridiculous. Yeah. You know without getting into all the nitty gritty, right? We don’t even know if there are different types of orgasms. Like there’s different theories, different science. But the bottom line is, we don’t break men’s orgasms down by the type of stimulation. We don’t say did you have a blow job orgasm or an intercourse orgasm? You know, a prostate? Orgasm. I mean, it’s so goofy. I’ve also had orgasms in my sleep. So that what does that count as?
This is the ask a sex therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship. I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships and enjoying your body, because it’s time for you to ask a sex therapist. Everybody, welcome to this week’s episode, I am here with Laurie Mintz, who I mentioned back in episode five about the clitoris. So if you haven’t listened to that one, go listen to that one. But either way, you’re in for a little bit of a treat. Here, we’re gonna get into the orgasm gap and whatever else we need to fix to support the pleasure of vulva owners everywhere. But first, we have our review of the week. So I have a new podcast friend that I met at pod fest global, who mentioned that ratings and reviews of her show are her new love language. The same holds true for me totally stealing that from her. So our review this week says Heather’s witty style and no nonsense approach is what makes this podcast a personal favorite for me. You learn in an entertaining and totally not intimidating way. I’ve subscribed and plan on listening to every episode. So what I love about this is the subscribing part. You want to make sure not to miss it. New episodes come out on Monday, you can subscribe or follow at the top of your podcast app. And we also want to let you know that there’s actually going to be some incentive as well. So if you hear your review, read on the show, reach out and we’ll actually send you a free bundle of books from Amazon storefront, which includes Lori’s book becoming literate. Very fun, but let me officially introduce our guests Laurie. Laurie mense is an award winning college professor. She currently teaches psychology of human sexuality to hundreds of students a year at the University of Florida and has over 20 years of experience working with private clients on sexual issues. Dr. Men’s has received numerous professional awards and is a fellow of the American Psychological Association. She has published over 50 research studies, writes a Psychology Today blog and has been quoted in many outlets, including cosmopolitan Women’s Day prevention, women’s health, men’s health cnn.com oprah.com And the Huffington Post. You can find more about Lori at Dr. Laurie mintz.com. All right. Well, welcome. Laurie, thank you so much for being here. Oh, thank you for having me. It’s a great honor. Oh, thank you, I have to say, when my podcast launched and I tagged you on Instagram, and then you’re like, oh my god, I love to be a guest on the show it like made my week that week. And I was so excited. Because you have done so much amazing work in the field. And I think important work that people still don’t know enough about. So I’m excited to talk about it today. That’s great. Thank you so much. Yeah. All right. So I’m curious, how did you get on this path? I love to just find people’s backgrounds, because we’re in a pretty interesting field, that there’s not a ton of people. I think it’s growing. But there’s not a ton of us. Yeah. So how did you wind up in this field? It was not a purposeful route. I grew up in an unusually six positive household, like very unusual. I could tell some hysterical stories about my mother. In fact, if we want to circle back Yeah, I wouldn’t hate that. So I was always really comfortable with the topic. Anyway, went to grad school became a professor, a psychologist, a therapist, a researcher, and for many, many years I researched eating disorders. Oh, yeah, that was my thing. And people with eating disorders have generally poor body image poor body image is related to difficulty relaxing and letting go sexually, right, because you’re like contorting your body in ways that won’t be seen. And so I always would talk to my clients about sex, but based on just sort of general information, not deep training, and then I got to a point in my career, where I sort of had to be honest with you, I had an existential crisis. I was really sick of eating disorders. And I was also sick of writing research articles that to be honest, it’s like only other research Share saw, and I felt like there was a better way to have a positive impact in the world. And so I thought I love to write, but I don’t really like the research, what do I want to write? And to be completely transparent at that point in time, I had lost my own sex drive. I had two little kids and intense jobs and health issues. And every friend I talked to was like, Yeah, me too. Me too. Me too. Oh, wow. Yeah, because we are all in this similar, really difficult high stress life stage. And so I thought, well, everybody I know, as long as their sex drive, I want to write about that. So I literally just took a lot of time to do a very deep dive into the treatment and research literature. And then I wrote my first self help book, a tired Woman’s Guide to passionate sex. And then the scientist in me clicked in and I had like, Oh, my God, I put a book out there in the world, what if it’s not helpful? What if it’s even harmful? I kind of freaked. And I was lucky to be in an academic institution with grad students. So I couldn’t get involved because of research ethics and bias. But I asked some students would you want to run a randomized clinical trial on my book, and I discovered there was a whole area of research on the efficacy of self help books. So anyway, I had students run a bunch of trials. And then I got more and more and more trained and more immersed in the field. Then I took a job I was at the University of Missouri at the time, and because I took a job at the University of Florida, and the reason I took the job is they didn’t have an undergrad human sex class, started teaching that. And that’s when I got really enthralled with the orgasm gap, not just the statistics, but the pain behind the numbers for my students. And I started teaching to female orgasm, closing the gap. And I get notes like thanks to your class, I’m orgasmic things. Class, my girlfriend’s orgasmic. And I thought, I want to write this up beyond my class, and hence was born becoming clitoris. And now all I do all I do. And I never get sick of it is right about talk about teach about do therapy around sex. And I still feel like there’s so much I don’t know, I love the field. Because every day, every day, I learned something new. There’s so much to learn. I couldn’t agree more. Sometimes I’m like, Wow, I’m supposed to be like an expert on this stuff. I feel like I’m just scratching the surface. Yeah, exactly. Because there’s so much to know. Yeah. Can you break it down? For people who maybe don’t know, what is the orgasm gap? Absolutely. So first of all, let me define some terms. I’m going to be talking about cisgender women and cisgender men. So cisgender women are people born with vaginas and assigned to sex a female at birth who identify as women cisgender men born with a penis assigned male at birth identifies men. And I think it’s really important to say that because if we don’t we linguistically erase non gender conforming and trans folks, but what I’m about to talk about pertains to cisgender individuals, because that’s where the research is. And also, that’s where the problem is. So from the little research we have, but the orgasm gap is the consistent finding in the scientific literature that when cisgender women get it on with cisgender men, the women are having way fewer orgasms than the men just a few little striking statistics. In one study, 39% of women versus 91% of men said they usually orgasm during a sexual encounter, like Whoa, what a gap. Wow. But that study didn’t ask the context of the sex. Subsequent research right tells us it’s biggest and first time hookup sex massive. When the study I conducted 55% of men versus a 59% of men versus 10% of women get smaller in friends with benefits. It gets smaller in relationship sex, but it rarely even closes altogether. In one study. 68 versus 95% of men said they orgasm during their last instance of relationships. Sec. So just to throw a little bit more out there. People say well, of course that’s true. Women’s bodies are difficult, elusive, hard to make orgasm. But other stats tell us that’s not true when alone. 94 to 95% of women orgasm easily and within four minutes. Wow. And when women have sex with other women, they’re more likely to orgasm. This study came out after my book, but it’s striking. This was a study of bisexual women. So same woman, same body. They hooked up with women and they hooked up with men. If their first time hookup partner was a woman, they said they usually orgasm 64% of the time. If their first time hookup partner was a man seven percent of the time. Wow, I had not heard that one. Same woman, same body. So what does it tell us? The orgasm give isn’t about our bodies. It’s about culture in the way we do heterosexual sex. Yeah, that one kind of blows me away. I also wonder if there’s an element of like, comfort level. That’s different. I don’t know. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot to it. Because when with other women, you might not have that fear of sexual coercion or assault. You also may have the comfort to say how do you like to be pleasure? Yeah. Because you know, you need to ask, I think there’s like you’re less worried maybe maybe less body monitoring, the male gaze whole thing. But I also think a big part of it, is that the way we do heterosexual sex foreplay just to get her ready for intercourse, intercourse, male ejaculation sex over. And there’s not an equal valuing of clitoral stimulation, which is most women’s most reliable route to orgasm, as there is penile stimulation. And one of the things that came up in your book and that, I think you are also associated with the peanut app, but I did the the pods on the peanut app for a while. And so, you know, a lot of people were asking me, oh, well, how do I have a real orgasm meaning from penetration? And I was like, Okay, let’s back it up a little bit here. But do you think that plays in at all, I think that’s the hugest part of it. Yeah. And I cannot believe it’s 2023. And we’re still having this conversation that like that there is some ideal way to orgasm and it’s, it’s through penetration yet. That’s not the reality. The vagina and the penis are not analogous organs. The clitoris and the penis are yes, and only four to 18% of women orgasm from just penetration. But yet we have this myth out there that that’s the right way to orgasm. It’s awful. And I just literally got an email, this person said, I could share it without their name. They said that they read my book. And they tried to get their partner to read the book, but their partner wouldn’t, because he kept insisting that if she could just relax, she would have quote, the right type of oral well dump him. Yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking. Right. And I also hate this narrative of like, those few women who can are lucky. Like, it still perpetuates the, like, this whole thing of like, you know, and she was she wrote me, she was like, just teach me to do it the right way. And I said, I said this, I’m five feet, like, can you teach me to be five for like, I think I shouldn’t bring you up is so important in the sense that, you know, there’s not like a hierarchy of like, good orgasms, and better orgasms and best orgasms and like, you know, you’re somehow less man or like deficient. If you’re not having what we’ve culturally deemed is the better orgasm because I mean, at least not that I’m aware of. There’s no proof that like it’s a more powerful or a better orgasm or that there’s more pleasure being experience and so much of that is subjective anyways, so it’s like, yeah, I that hierarchy drives me crazy. If you orgasm from penetration. You’re on top right. Penetration plus clitoral stimulation. Next, okay. Just clitoral stimulation. It’s like this stupid ridiculous. Yeah. You know, without getting into all the nitty gritty, right? We don’t even know if there are different types of orgasms. Like there’s different theories, different science. But the bottom line is, we don’t break men’s orgasms down by the type of stimulation. We don’t say did you have a blow job orgasm or an intercourse orgasm? You know, a prostate? Orgasm. I mean, it’s so goofy, because I’ve also had orgasms in my sleep. So that what does that count as? So? It was like, none of the above all of the above? Maybe the whole thing is mental anyway, you know, like, I don’t know. Right? So it’s only when it comes to women’s orgasms. We divide them by the point of stimulation and declare one better than the other. Right? Yeah, I don’t know. It’s fascinating. I think it’s just a bunch of made up stuff. So I’m glad we’re kind of debunking that right now. One thing you said I wanted to go back to So you were saying the vagina is not analogous to the penis. The clitoris is can you break that down for people? Because I’m not sure if they’ll? Yeah, so when we develop in the embryo, the penis in the clitoris are analogous Oregon’s so for example, in the vulva to the whole vulva, which is the outside area of the vagina of the women’s genitals that also drives me crazy how we call our entire genitals a vagina. And by doing so, we’re really linguistically erasing the part of ourselves that gives us the most pleasure, right? We’re calling our genitals by the part that’s most useful to men and women ourselves. And let me explain that so. The vulva is the outside area and it contains To all the touch sensitive nerve endings, and the clitoral hood is analogous to the foreskin of the penis if it’s not removed, I think a lot of people probably don’t know they have a clitoral hood. So that’s the part that covers the outside of the clitoris that you can see. case people are wondering. Yes, and then under that is the glands of the clitoris, which is like so densely packed with the nerve endings in a small amount of space that most can’t touch it directly. It’s painful. That’s analogous to the head of the penis. The inner lips, which are an underrated sexual organ, are analogous to the shaft of the penis. And they are all those parts are chock full of touch sensitive nerve endings in erectile tissue. In terms of the vagina, the opening in the inner third also have touch sensitive nerve endings. But the inner two thirds have pressure sensitive nerve endings, explaining why some people like the feeling of something thick after they’re aroused. And also explaining why we can wear Tampax and not feel them. There are no touch sensitive nerve endings in the vagina. So yes, some people say they orgasm from thrusting of a penis. And there’s a lot of theories why could be that the inner lips are pulling on the clitoral hood and just the right way it could be the clitoral balls that surround the vagina that are being stimulated, which is why some people say no matter where the stimulation occurs, it’s all clitoral. Now other people argue with that. But the bottom line is we have to stop thinking the vagina and the penis together even though they do go together during intercourse debate. They’re not. They’re not analogous organs, right? And so because basically, when babies are developing, there’s a point in development where it’s all the same. And then the hormones influence kind of which direction it goes. But I think the way you’re explaining is so helpful for people. And I think people were ready gotten so much value that they probably didn’t know, I mean, even just that the outer third has more touch sensitivity, the inner two thirds, it’s just pressures. So the more I think people can really understand it, the better. One of the things that also came up when I was reviewing your book, it was a part where you had just blocked out a little section and you’re like, oh, yeah, like you know, there’s a few different sources about like attachment points, I think of the the clitoral hood, maybe. And it was like you had three different sources. And they said different things. It was like, Oh, it attaches in one place and attaches in two places. And you were saying that even the source you most trusted was actually wrong. And it took you and your assistant looking at your own genitals to be like, No, there’s two points. Exactly. This just like really, really speaks to the state of knowledge, specifically the lack of knowledge, even amongst quote unquote experts, researchers, professionals. So what do you think is going on there? Like why? Why don’t people no more? Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. That was such a upsetting period of time. Yeah, in the book, because I kept in that and I couldn’t get right information. Yeah. And I felt I can’t write this book. It means I just don’t know anything. I was like, gonna stop writing. I wrote my editor. And she’s the one she said, the fact that there’s this misinformation, and you can’t figure it out as the reason we need the book. But it’s like, we just the internal structure of the clitoris was just mapped for the first time in 2005. With MRI technology, we have not only been studying women’s sexuality for very long, and so it’s really still at its infancy. And there’s still so much confusion that steeped through it. And I would say there’s also still some kind of male centric views and ways of researching, you know, go through it. I think we’re making huge progress, but I think there’s so much we don’t know. But that’s why it’s important for people to know what they can know. Like, take a mirror identify your parts. Yeah, and the other thing most people know it intuitively but they need it pointed out like when women masturbate. Two studies show that less than 2% Do so by putting something inside their vagina. Simply Oh, exclusively. Yeah, exclusively, right. The rest use external alone or external combined. Yet there’s this disconnect. Women know how to do it alone. Yeah, but then they get with male partners and they think they’re supposed to orgasm in different ways exclusively through penetrates. And I do think this is an issue for humans regardless of gender to like, I think that for the SIS women that I work with, sometimes there’s a sense of, oh, well, I feel like I’m gonna take too long or that body consciousness that you mentioned, or, you know, depending on upbringing, there’s sometimes a sense of like, this is sort of my wifely duty or this is you know, supposed to be for the man on. And so I think that that’s part of what’s going on. And also, we’re not taught the language to communicate our needs. And I think even for myself, sometimes we just, you know, when it’s our own body, we’re getting that instant feedback. But to then try and like break that down for someone else and communicate, it can be tough, and again, not something we’re taught to do. And then I think for a male partner, I mean, some guys that I’ve worked with or like, you know, boyfriends of clients I’ve had, who have, you know, come in for a session or something. Sometimes there is the idea that sex should just be easy. Or if it’s like good sex, it should just be easy. And they shouldn’t really have to go through this like efforting or like learning curve or any of that, like, what, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I agree with everything you said. And also, it’s not that it’s easier for men, it’s that we revolve the encounter around what’s easier for men. You know, I often say the stimulation men get from masturbation resembles intercourse, the stimulation women get doesn’t resemble it at all. And so we’re revolving the encounter around man’s most reliable route to orgasm, and add on top of that body image, self consciousness, genitals, self consciousness, no skills or training in general or sexual communication. Of course, it’s not going to be easy. But in the movies, they really do bus everything is easy. Everybody’s clothes come off. There’s no awkwardness. Everybody knows what to do. Never say what do you like? And then they all have orgasms mostly from penetration, right? Yeah, I would love a movie where they’re like, What are you into? What’s going to do it for you? Yes, we’re that’s such a good point. Like we’re seeing a little bit more of portrayal of clitoral stimulation, or at least implied, but we don’t have much sexual communication being portrayed. You’re absolutely right. Yeah. Right. Because I think it’s almost implied that it’s gonna make it awkward, or it’s gonna like kill the mood and really doesn’t have to. So I hope someone listening will put that into a show. Absolutely. Some producer out. Yeah, some producer out there. Yeah. Lori and I are available for consultation. Totally, totally. But so I guess how do people because like, some of this is pretty sad. You know, some of this is like, oh, man, this is like where we’re at. So what’s kind of the positive side? Like, why can people do to at least start rectifying this in their own sex life? Yeah. So I mean, it is pretty sad. But I think conversations like these help. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I really encourage people, once you know, you, once you see you can’t unsee and start calling out images, when you’re with your friends, like you’re watching a sexing together like, hey, that’s unrealistic. But in terms of individually, there’s like several steps people can take. I’ll run through them really fast. And then we can circle back to any The first is know your own anatomy, which we started to talk about, take a mirror, look at yourself, read about it. Then the second step is the sex organ between your ears. You’ve got to think sex positive thoughts when you’re not having sex, which means like no more slut shaming yourself, no more like sexes for him versus me attitude. And also when you are having a sexual encounter, mindfulness putting your mind and body in the same place that sex is best friend and in fact, you can’t have an orgasm when you’re monitoring when you’re thinking you have to be in your body. And then of course sexual communication, talking about sex before during after talking about what you need and then changing the scripts you know, no more foreplay just to get him ready her ready intercourse sex over you know, part of why lesbian sex is also more orgasmic is there’s a more turn taking style, guys, pleasure you then you pleasure me. Rather than trying to achieve these mythical orgasms at the same time through the same act so turn taking oral sex during which she orgasms, maybe intercourse where he does, or Enough fooling around that intercourse is pleasurable versus painful than the vibrator. Or if you want to try to orgasm during the same act like intercourse, use your own hands use a vibrator. It is no less sex if you have to touch yourself because like you were saying you have immediate feedback and that can be very erotic to pleasure yourself during intercourse. So those are the steps that one can take to close the orgasm gap in one’s own bedroom. But it doesn’t mean every sexual encounter should be orgasmic for both it’s okay once in a while only you come once in a while only they come you know it doesn’t have to be equally amazing for eight people all the time and the goal to have an orgasm makes one less likely oh and I left out the most Hortence what is it? Masturbate? Oh, yeah, masturbation is the most empirically supported technique for a woman to learn what she likes. So pleasure yourself hands vibrator, and then know what you like. And then with communication and changing of the scripts, most essential but underutilized advice, get the same type of stimulation with a partner that you do alone. So know your body, work with your mind, masturbate, communicate and change the scripts. That’s like, really, really good advice. So I hope everybody’s taking note of that. I mean, the Knowing your anatomy thing, too, I’ve thought about, I recently went to pelvic floor physical therapy, and I was talking with the provider about like, every woman should just come in, I’m like, can we make this a thing everyone should come in and be able to, like, learn about her anatomy, because sometimes I also think if people look themselves, they’re kinda like, is this where the queen is? Is this where, you know? And I am like, it’d be kind of cool to have a professional help women understand their genitals better. And, you know, that’s not something that’s part of the gynecology exams. There’s kind of this, like, I don’t know, if it’s just our culture, but like, you know, let’s put a sheet over you and like, let’s, whatever and I understand it’s important for people to feel safe. And you know, for it to feel professional, maybe. But it does seem like there’s an element that’s maybe reinforcing. Like, let’s not talk about it. Let’s not like, tell people what’s unique about their anatomy, because I had one provider, just like being very open today. That was like, Oh, let me get a longer speculum for you. So I’m like, do I have a long vagina? Have I had a long vagina this whole time and no one’s told me? And like, why why would no one told me? Right, exactly. And even though a lot my gynecologist colleagues tell me they a lot of gynecologist don’t even examine the external anatomy. They should be. They shouldn’t be looking for clitoral adhesions. I eat things that can cause problems, but they don’t they just go right for the vaginal exam. I do have one colleague, however, who says to all her patients, would you like to look in the mirror and I’ll show you your different power. So much. And so if you’re listening, and you’re like, yes, ask your provider, right? Because they might be assuming that most of their patients are uncomfortable. But if you show like, hey, I want to know that I bet they will look, I bet they will help you out. You know, it’s interesting. I’ve had the honor. Lately, I’ve been presenting to a lot of physician groups, Grand Rounds, and they have like almost no training in sexual health. It’s insane. But they’re often the first line of defense for people they are and I think it’s important for people to know that too. And when I published my audio only episode, on the clitoris, there was a doctor in my Facebook group that was kind of a podcast related thing. We’d gone to college together. And he was like, I literally learned more from your episode than from my gross anatomy class. I mean, good for me, but also like, oh, them. Yes, exactly. I meant, like good for you that you’re even you know, you’re reaching people to educate them about really important thing, right? Yeah. Right. So it’s kind of important for people to realize that like, you know, your average doctor is not going to really be able to know much and you really probably do need to talk to, I would say either a gynecologist or like a pelvic floor PT maybe? Absolutely, absolutely. Which there are out there. And I mean, some people listening might not have even heard of pelvic floor physical therapy, I think it’s starting to gain a little bit more popularity or a little bit more awareness. I think Europe is, you know what an orgasm is right? It’s the same for a penis and a vulva. The blood flows in, it’s filled, the erectile tissue fills up, then the blood is released through rhythmic contractions of the pelvic floor. So having a strong pelvic floor is going to make orgasms feel better. Although too strong a pelvic floor can cause pain. So people shouldn’t just be running around doing cables especially if they have pain but a couple of appointments with a pelvic floor physical therapist, I think can really teach you how to do these exercises and it’s good for urinary, you know, health, it’s good for so much. So much. So yeah, just go also, it’s really to back pain. I think it was like 95% of back pain has a pelvic floor component. So you know, if you have back pain, if you have like leaking when you do jumping jacks, if you have a hard time orgasming like go check it out. If you have premature ejaculation, go check it out. You know, like it can help with so many different things. And a lot of people just aren’t aware of it. And these people are so comfortable with sexual organs because they do it all day. And so it tends to be a very safe, comfortable space. Yeah, so that could be another way of knowing your anatomy. Okay, and then the next thing you mentioned was thoughts. This is obviously a big one. But you explain to people, how does your thinking actually impact your ability to orgasm? Well, your brain is actually like your biggest sex organ The book by Beverly Whipple, the orgasm answer guide says the brain is the conductor of the orgasm orchestra. And I really love that. But your thoughts influence you in a couple of ways. One subconscious sex negative thoughts, which many of us carry with us, because we were raised in a while we’re sexualized, it’s a sex negative culture. So sex is dirty sex isn’t important for me, sex is just my job to please my partner. If I have sex and enjoy it, I’m a slob, so many sex negative thoughts. So getting in touch with what those are that you’re caring, and then finding a way to say stop no and more positive thought like sex is for me, I can enjoy sex, etc. So that’s really important. And then that mindfulness thing, like so many times, our bodies are one place and our mind is somewhere else. Now. That’s natural. That’s what our minds do. They go forward, they go backwards. They’re rarely in the same place. Like someone listening to this podcast is interesting is or being, their mind may have wandered 15 times during the listening. That’s okay, that’s normal, it’s human. But mindfulness is noticing as quickly as you can, when that happens, not judging where your mind went in pulling it back to your body. I love the metaphor of a roller coaster. Whether you like it or not, if you’ve written one, when you get on, you’re like, Oh, your thoughts are racing, right? Like, I’m just gonna go upside down and get stuck. Yeah, my gonna vomit up. But once you’re flying downhill, you’re not thinking at all your mind and body is in the same place. And that’s mindfulness. It takes a lot of practice cultivated in daily life. You can meditate, you can do yoga, you can also just do it in daily activities, the next time you’re brushing your teeth. When your mind wanders, bring it back to the sensations. And we know it’s really essential for orgasm, because the latest brain research shows that the brain state right before orgasm is identical to the brain state of deep mindfulness. Really, yes. So to have an orgasm requires turning your brain off, okay? You cannot orgasm unless you turn your brain off. Now, there’s not sure if orgasm itself turns it back on or if it turns on after but that’s what the latest brain research shows. So meditate. I always say meditate, lubricate vibrate. Can you get a t shirt that says that on it? That’s Oh, we should make? Yeah, I do want to have a merch line with some like sexual puns, but also things like that. One day, we’ll get there. Okay, so then what about sexual communication? So this is where I see a lot of the people that I work with get stuck, where, you know, they kind of have this like good friendship in their relationship. They’ve been together for a long time. Maybe they just don’t talk about sex because they’re uncomfortable. Or maybe they talk about it. And it just tends to not go well, like they, you know, someone gets really triggered. Yeah. So Cory Silverberg has a great line, I promise you that it’s easier to learn to talk about sex than it is to learn to read minds, and we can’t teach your clients to read minds, but we can teach them to talk about sex like they would any other topic. And we know from the research, right that the more you talk about sex, the better sex you have. So really, there’s a whole set of skills but the bottom line is start to talk about sex outside of the bedroom. What do you like, what don’t you like? Oh, could we do different talk during it’s okay, faster, slower? How about right there, huh? Talk after how was that for you? And don’t get all whipped out if it was better for one than the other. That’s normative. And then you know, have what I call clitoris. See chats, sit down together. Talk about the type of clitoral stimulation you need. watch some movie together like or have sex positive sight like OMG. Yeah. Read a book together on clitoral stimulation, like have the conversation. Yeah, I think that’s so important too. And I mean, you can also state your preferences. Like if you don’t want the feedback during sex and you want it after you want it before when it’s not a sexual context, like communicate about your communication preferences. Right, exactly. Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. And I’ve done some episodes about kind of unlearning sex negativity stuff. What do you think is like the default script? The default script is foreplay just to get her ready for intercourse intercourse male orgasm sex over and changing that script so clitoral stimulation penetration are equally important. So she comes first she comes second or if you come together again, often you need to use your own hand vibrator a couple’s vibrator, there’s cock rings With attach glue vibrators excetera so just let go of this idea that sex is like a staircase we start with kissing then we move to this this this yeah with intercourse the final stair in it’s much better if it’s more a sharing of pleasure and a giving and taking and not trying to get to the top of the stairs. Yeah, it’s like sex is over whenever you guys decide it’s over, like, Zach, whoever it is that you’re with. And yeah, I think it kills creativity like I think especially and you know, a longer relationship, but really even in shorter ones. You know, if you’re always just kind of doing the same stuff in the same order. progam get kind of bored anyways. Absolutely. Great point. Yes, I think that’s what some of the unlearning the script or changing the script could look like is you can even play with Okay, let’s just take penetration off the table for a little bit and see what we can come up with. Exactly. And in fact, Peggy Klein Pitts wrote a book I don’t know if you’ve read it called magnificent dead love that one. Yeah. And, you know, it was really about people who were having great sex, they were usually faced with their best sex started at 50. Why? Because they could get more creative. They took penetration off the table for maybe medical reasons, etc. And they started having better sex when they stop being so goal oriented. I love that. And I think just as a therapist in general, being too attached to an outcome is a recipe for anxiety. And anxiety is a recipe for no orgasms. Yes, you know, it’s gonna be more fun. Yes, mindfulness and sex is best friend self monitoring, shame, anxiety or its enemies. So yeah, there’s someone listening who has you know, struggled to have an orgasm, you know, all the stuff that we’re saying is going to help you. You know, know your anatomy, get a good vibrator. Talk about it. So that brings us to the last one masturbation, try it on your own. Right. Yeah. And that actually should come before even communication and changing the scripts, you know, because the first know your own body and know change your thoughts and then engage in mindful masturbation and then talk about it and transfer it to partner sex. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, some of my clients are kind of resistant to masturbating. And I think it does go back to you know, feeling uncomfortable with their genitals or kind of the messaging they got you know, how do people kind of work with that I often talk to my clients about like the health benefits of masturbation that there are a lot of spiritual beliefs that say the reason our hands can reach our genitals is they’re supposed to there’s lots of health benefits are really our you know, better sleep better stress management, better skin health all kinds of stuff on flow lymphatic system. Yeah, whole thing and if clients really object I’ve had clients who really object for religious reasons. Okay. And the source I always send them to have you heard of Rev. Bev. She’s an ordained Christian minister. She’s got a YouTube channel, and she uses the Bible to be sex positive, and she’s got a video. Oh my god, I love this. Yeah, she’s got a video where she quotes Bible verses to say that actually, the Bible is not against masturbation. I love her. I need to have her on the show. Yeah. She’s fabulous. That’s so cool. Yeah, I’m gonna refer people to that too. But I think there is just more shaming of, you know, women’s genitalia as and more just like, you know, through periods, or like, ooh, could smell weird down there. And I think we also just need to realize, like, that’s a bunch of made up crap, also. And the smell is fine. You know, maybe if there’s like an infection going on. It’s not but otherwise the smell is fine. Right? All those products do shes scented pads, they’re really bad for vaginally really give you the idea that you smell bad your vagina smells like vagina, and it’s supposed to smell away it smells. And you should get to know your own smell so that if it changes, it might signal infection, and then you’d need to go to the doctor agree. So that brings us back to like, there are actual health benefits to doing this work. You know, and I learned recently because even in my sexual health certificate, most of this is not taught to be fully. Wow. I mean, I think it’s just way too academic. I think it’s way like oh, here’s so and so’s model of psychosocial sexuality or something. And I’m like, okay, yeah, no. Oh, yeah. Right, like with a client. So yeah, I would at some point I’m like, I would love to have my own little sex school training thing, but there’s so much to learn even just like hygiene with genitals. You know, the idea that you don’t want those scented products and that can mess up with your pH or cause bacterial issues or something and you really want fragrance free body wash just on the outer labia and really just water inside when you’re washing. So I just like want people to Know how to properly take care of themselves to him. Why is that not taught? You guys we’re just like on a mission. We’re gonna fix this. So share this episode with people because like nobody knows this information and like everybody should be knowing this. But I just want to say thank you to Lori and where can people find you? Where Where should we send them? You have so many resources. You the best place like my central hub is my website, which is www. Dr. Laurie Mintz, Dr. l au riemintz.com. From there, you can, you know, link to booksellers like Amazon, Barnes and Noble to buy my books. You can follow me on social media, but my handle is the same on all social media, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, Twitter, Dr. Laurie mints, and I’m most active on Instagram. Yeah, you guys check out her book like but coming clitoris is just I think like a must read for everyone regardless of gender. So it’s a great way to even bring up the conversations with your partner because this is why I love like books, articles, podcasts, because it’s neutral. You know, it’s like nothing’s pointed, nothing’s targeted at them. It’s harder to get defensive. And it’s a great way to just kind of listen or read something together and start a conversation. So thank you so, so much Laurie, for being here. I hope everyone enjoyed this and we’ll catch you next week. Thanks for having me.
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