028 BDSM, Play Parties & Queer Sexuality with Kesiena Boom
I think that directness is absolutely key as a queer woman approaching another woman, I think it’s very easy for women to get stuck in this. Are we flirting? Or are we being friendly? When this woman says, I’m really super hot? Does she mean as a friend? Or is the fucking the bathroom? Like, what’s the vibe? Just cut off the ambiguity from the jump because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been like voice noting back and forth. So just don’t even get it twisted. Just be really clear from the outset.
This is the ask a sex therapist podcast helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon. And in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to ask a sex therapist. Everybody, welcome to this week’s episode of Ask a sex therapist. We have a guest this week, and it’s going to be really fun, we’re going to talk about how to approach other women as a woman or going to get to play parties, and all sorts of fun topics. So stay tuned for that. But first, we’re gonna do the review of the week. So just as a reminder, if you take the time to review the show, which you know, don’t do it, if you’re driving, maybe set a reminder for yourself to do it later. And you hear your review, right on the show, you actually win a prize bundle of books. So you can pick any three books from my Amazon storefront. The link to the storefront is in the show notes if you just scroll down on whatever device you’re listening to. And there’s also our email address to contact us to claim your price. So this week’s review says Good job. I never thought that I would ever listen to a podcast like this because I never felt comfortable talking about this stuff, probably because I was raised in that way. But he made it very comfortable. For me talking about topics that are difficult for a lot of people to face, including myself, really something else of a podcast, keep it up. So thank you so much for this review. Views are so motivational and just keeping going not to mention, they also help more people find the show. So thank you for your support. And please email us and claim your free prize. So I’m going to introduce our guest today. Cassia. Boom is a Sex and Relationships writer, counselor and training and award winning sociologist with a background in gender studies. You can read more about her and find examples of her work and her website, which we will link to in the show notes. She writes from a queer perspective and is interested in understanding the interplays of power and pleasure than four of our intimate relationships. So welcome cast. Jana, thank you so much for being here. Hi, Hannah. Hi, everyone listening. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here. Yeah. And doesn’t she I’m such a cute accent is I think your first person with a funny accent. So I’m excited about that. Yeah, so Cassie, Hannah and I know each other more so from her journalists role where I had been a source that time and then I was reading over her website, and I was like, oh my god, she has so many good qualifications, I need to have her on the show. So very excited to have her here. So we are going to dive in. The first topic we’re gonna go through a few different topics with this episode is a little bit different than some of the other guests. But the first one that we mentioned was the idea of asserting desires as a queer woman, so has to tell us what does that mean to you? And what kind of issues do you feel like kind of come up with that and like, get in the way sometimes. So I think a problem that I hear a lot about from other queer women is that they hit this kind of roadblock, where they have trouble articulating their desires, not just for other people, but also for themselves, it’s pretty hard to be able to express like, I like X, Y, and Zed to a partner, if you haven’t even really taken the time yourself to think about what it is that you want or need to have good and pleasurable sex. So I think that sometimes I feel that people queer women in particular, should like really take the time to slow down, figure it out, like, what is it that turns me on? I think it’s so it’s so common, I think, for people to sort of like, turn up to sex and just be like, Okay, I guess we’re having cool, that’s exciting. But like, what next? But I think that like taking the time to sort of like poke around inside of like the nooks and crannies of our desires can only be really beneficial. And I think that if it feels a little bit overwhelming to just sort of sit there and think well, what do I like, then it can be really helpful, I think, to turn to culture to see what other people are into. I I know that often the advice is to watch porn to get inspiration. And I mean, I think that has its place for sure. But I also think that sometimes it can feel a little bit overwhelming to look at porn and try to like, apply that to your own life. It’s not exactly so easy to just be like, oh, yeah, I can see myself doing that when that is maybe not so reflective of your life. Right, right. I mean, like flipping upside down or doing a million different positions, and one was like coming on command. It’s not so realistic. So I think like something that’s really instrumental, I think in a lot of queer people forming of the sexuality is turning to other sources of culture, like books or films, I would really recommend reading books. Can I shout out some specifics are very encouraged here. Okay, wonderful. So a really great book that I really think has some really beautiful and hot and interesting sex scenes is a book called Paul takes the form of a mortal Girl by Andrea Lola Hall takes the form of a mortal girl so interesting, honestly, amazing. It’s a book about a queer guy named Paul, who was also a shapeshifter. So he can shift his body at command. So he spends half of his time like living like a fabulous like, life is like a queer man. And the other times like living as a lesbian, and flipping between having like a lot of like, hot date, sex, and then a lot of like, hot like gay male sex. So there’s really something for everyone in this book. And it’s like, so beautifully written, super evocative, and I think can really give you a feel for like, what is it in the like, everyday of life that like, turns me on like in sex. Like, when I go to a ball, or when I’m at a music festival, or just when I’m like, out and about living my best queer life, like, what is it that can like Spark desire in me from the people around me. So pull takes the form of a mortal girl. Okay, we’ll link to that in the show notes, too. That sounds like a fascinating book, just in general, it’s really good. I really cannot sing its praises loud enough. Andriola. If you ever happen to hear this, I love your work, please write another novel, I’m waiting. And then I guess if people are interested in more of like a BDSM, and kink sort of angle than another really good novel is x by David Davis, which follows a person who is generally a sadist, but who lets themselves get topped by a hot, firm, masochist hot firms either so and becomes absolutely obsessed with her to break down these terms for people, because I have not done a kink episode yet. And I don’t know that people will know the term femme, but I think you might be the perfect person to break the term. Because I read an article you wrote about it. So. So tell people what you mean by that? Right? So a few years ago, I wrote an article for Slate about women and femmes. That’s correct. So fam is a term that we use within the queer community to describe queer people with a feminine gender expression. It can be used by Yeah, by people of all genders, but specifically queer people to express like, can I say like, defiant, and specific form of femininity that has nothing to do with like performing for the straight male gaze? I think that’s probably the most succinct way of putting it. Okay, so someone can be fat, regardless of their gender identity. Yeah, absolutely. Let’s so you can be a non binary femme or you can be a femme woman. You know, like a lot of gay men also refer to themselves as firms like it has crossed crossed queer application on Matt. And can you read it and break down queer? Like, how would you define the weird actually got asked this by someone the other day? Yeah, that’s a big, long questions. Yeah. And I’ll jump into Biden too. But I mean, I’m curious how similar your definition as to why the other day? Absolutely. So for me, queer is about a couple of different things. It’s about having a sexuality that isn’t straight or agenda that isn’t cisgender and it’s about locating yourself in the world, in a way that stands in opposition to norms around sexuality, bodies, desire, and gender. So I think that to be queer, you need to a not straight and or not sis cisgender I not transgender. And I think that you also need to have some kind of political commitment to trying to like challenge normative behaviors and assumptions around sexuality and gender. That’s an interesting piece, like the political stance because I agree with you and I think there is an element, the word queer of like, I’m not aka just play into like heteronormative, you know, sis normative staff in general? Yes, I think that that’s definitely an element of it. Because I think it’s very possible to, you know, be a person who is gay or bisexual, or whatever, and to still be quite wedded to heteronormative ideals and norms, you know. So I think that it’s really a two parter for me. I also think, and I’m curious what you think about this job? Like, it’s a label still, like it’s but it almost feels like an anti Label Label. Like a little bit where maybe someone’s like, you know, don’t just like pigeonhole me, like, just yeah, you’re just lesbian or just buyer. So what what do you think about that piece of it? Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people are attracted to queer because it can contain multitudes. I think that it’s signaling something about your sexuality and gender, but it’s not giving you like a detailed roadmap to follow, so to speak. And I think that, for a lot of people living in that sort of, like, in between, and you can’t pin me down can be really attractive and feel very empowering. I think that like, for me, personally, I describe my sexuality as like lesbian and queer, because I like to be like, specific about like, what flavor of queer I am. But yeah, I know that a lot of people love to, like, float around in that queer soup and be like, you can’t just don’t know. And that’s like, exciting to me. Yeah. And one of the things I love and there was an interesting episode of my friend Evans podcast, his podcast is love, you can link to this episode. But he did an episode on gender roles. And he referenced some research about it was like relationship satisfaction in general. And basically, people with prayer relationships were happier. Long story sharper, I’m sure. Okay, that’s interesting. Tell me more. Well, I mean, I, I think part of it is what you just said, were like, there’s maybe not as many roadmaps, you know, like, if you’re in a queer relationship, like if you’re a woman with another woman, or a guy, the other guy or non binary person with whoever, there’s not as much in the culture, I think about what that should look like. Like, there’s less of a should, maybe there’s zero. And I also think, like, the more it is, like this weird irony shortfalls, like the more mainstream it can become to be queer. Probably the more of a roadmap there is, but like, I think what I want for everyone listening is like, let’s all throw away our roadmaps like, show up and figure out like what that means. And so sometimes I think that’s something, you know, straight people can also learn from the queer communities, like let’s throw out our roadmap and just like be present with another person and figure it out. But it takes more work. Absolutely. I’m, I’m nodding vigorously. I realize this, but I’m nodding. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think like, as people I think that we’re drawn to, you know, what’s familiar, what’s comforting, and that can often be you know, the things that we know the things that we’ve read the things that we’ve seen, modeled. So it’s not really surprising that people fall back into these habits and norms, but it can really feel so yeah, liberating when you realize that actually, it’s not a imperative, and you have the you have the power to change them to change them up if you want. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let’s see what other juicy topics for people. Okay, so we started getting into women knowing what they want. You mentioned a couple books that people could check out to help themselves, like, figure out what they want in bed and what’s sexy to them and what’s turning them on. Do you have any other suggestions for like, how people can figure this out? If it’s not something they’ve really explored, especially as a queer woman? Yeah, absolutely. I think that taking time to like really reflect like, look back on on your life and think about like, what are some moments that have really turned me the fuck on? Like, if I think back through like the sexual encounters that I’ve had, or if you haven’t had sex yet, you know, the things that have like, given you butterflies in your stomach or made you feel this kind of like, yeah, amorous feelings. Like really trying to like pin that down? You know, like, it’s very easy to be like, Oh, I don’t know like, I like blondes or you know, something like that. Something a bit more like surface but I know what kind of smells turn you on, like, what kind of terms you want in the way that like people look at you like, how do you want to feel in a sexual encounter? Do you want to feel powerful? Do you want to feel powerless? Do you want to feel overpowered? Like, what is it that like lights that spark in you? Just take some time to like lie on your bed and just like really like, let your mind wander and like really just try and be present and feel your feelings? Without thinking, Oh, I shouldn’t be turned on by that, or is it okay? That, just let it let it be that I think that’s a really, really good place to place to start. Yeah, so healthy. And then I think once you’ve done that, it can be really helpful to start to try to write some things down, like get something concrete down just for yourself, don’t plan to show it to anyone. This is just for you to like, let your erotic imagination run wild. And then you can like practice trying to say these things to yourself, like in the mirror in a way that you might want to, like, explain to a partner in the future so that you become comfortable with being like, Okay, this is what I like. And this is how I can express it to another person. And it might feel super weird at first, but the more that you like, practice and like, get more like into the groove, it will start to feel really natural and good. And honestly exciting, you know, when you start to take more control over it, those are my top tips. Yeah, those are great tips. And I like the new report too. And just this idea that, you know, we’re taking this time to figure it out and to then articulate it, because, I mean, I know for me, like in the past, it was like, I don’t know, I’m like turnout, or I’m not. And there wasn’t so much of like a putting together. Okay, so why was they turned on? What specifically was it? You know, even imagining, like, Okay, well, if the person looked different, or if the person’s tone of voice was different, or if the way they touched me, or the way that I approached that, you know, so there’s just so many little nuances there that I do think can get missed if we don’t take the time to be curious. Yes, 100%, taking the time to be curious. I think that that is such a beautiful way of summing up how you should approach your sexuality in general, there’s always something new to discover, for sure. I think it can also be depending on the kind of relationship that you have with your friends, like trying to talk about these things with your friends, so that you’re not in like a situation where you feel like sexual pressure, you know, you’re just like, having cocktails, with your friends or whatever. And you’re just like testing the idea of like, putting your sexual self out into the world without having to like, you know, follow through, that can feel pretty freeing. I also will say, I think talking about sex with friends is really important. That could be a whole separate topic and podcasts. But I had a friend growing up because I mean, part of my story, too, is that like I, I was not always comfortable talking about sex, you know. And I remember I had a friend who talked about masturbation or using a vibrator. And I was like, we can talk about this in front of other people. Like what really, and then like other people started jumping into the conversation, I think this was when we were in college. And I was able to just open up this world of possibility, oh, he’d be comfortable enough to talk about this. How cool. So practice with friends is good. You also mentioned here in some of the notes about vocalizing what you like about, especially if you’ve slept with more men than women? And so what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that that can kind of complicate things for people? Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of women who primarily have slept with men have either consciously or subconsciously, let the men’s desires sort of rule rule the show. So it can be harder to sort of, like, be comfortable with having your desires in the first place, and then asserting them, because straight men’s sexuality, you know, is given such like, centrality and culture. So men really are not afraid to know what they want. And, you know, take what they want, ask for what they want. And you know, sort of just like, show up and run the show. So I think that it can be extra important for women who have slept with a lot of men to really think about like, Okay, how much of the time my desire is like taking center stage? How much of the time am I advocating for? Like, what I like what I need, what makes me feel good? How can I like have an orgasm, etc. That makes so much sense to me, because it’s like, you’re right. There’s statistics on this with pornography, too, which, by the way, as we mentioned, it can be a tool, but also it’s a business and it’s entertainment. And it’s mostly men who pay for for it. And so porn is mostly going to hear to the people who are paying for I think it’s like there’s twice as many blow jobs shown as oral sex and women do like that’s interesting. There’s a lot of depictions of people just like coming from penetration when that’s not kind of the most reliable or effective way for most people with a bald orgasm. I think it’s like you’re saying, it tends to be the man’s experience being centered. And I do think sometimes if we look at porn as an educator instead of an entertainer, that’s where I think it can become problematic. So just keeping that in mind. Yeah, you know, take inspiration, don’t take detailed notes and also Maybe find more feminist porn and find more queer centered porn and yeah, like, Absolutely, there is so much queer porn out there. For example, I know a hot classic that many queer swear by CrashPad series. So shout out to CrashPad. Okay, so we’ll link to the crash pad series, you guys are gonna have all of these fun tools in the show notes that you can access to kind of keep going on your journey. But yeah, I can see like, if you’re centering men’s experiences, and then you’re like, Oh, now there’s just us two women, and there’s no guy here, like, what do we do? Yeah, I think that a lot of women can feel a bit like paralyzed like, oh, okay, now it’s just on me, I guess like, well, what next, but like I said earlier, there are plenty of things that you can do alone to start to, like, get to know your own sexuality and to get comfortable with expressing it to your partner. I would also say take pressure off to, you know, like, if it’s one of your first few times, hooking up with another woman to like, let it be in perfect and like, let yourself say things or, you know, like, Oh, how about we try this? Or I don’t know, or? Yeah, absolutely. Like, I think it’s also really important to like, keep sight of the fact that sex should be fun, like. It should be like number one, let’s like good to remember official. And I think that like, I can definitely remember all of the anxieties that I had, as a young person around like, how am I going to know what to do? What’s gonna happen? I don’t know. But the thing about sectors that like, you’re not the only person there, like there’s another person there for you to like, well, maybe more than one. But there’s at least one other person present for you to like bouncing ideas off of, and you know, you make something together. Like, you don’t have to, like have everything planned out perfectly in your head, you’re responsible for like, Okay, what am I desires? And like, What do I like, you’d never be able to completely like, know how sex is going to look at how it’s gonna turn out. Because you know, it’s something that you’re going to create together. I love that, like, I think we need to look at sex as a creative process. And it reminds me of like, improv, you know, it’s like it’s not fully scripted. Usually. I’ve never done improv, does it show? A lot of people are familiar with that phrase. Yes. And you know, it’s, it’s kind of just like rolling with what’s coming up and adding your own little perspective and flavor to it. Yeah. Yes. Not bringing anyone out of the scene. Yeah, it’s a great metaphor. I’m loving this. Yeah, I think I’m actually gonna have an improv comedian on here at some point in the relatively near future, so people can stay tuned for that. Okay, so you mention an interesting little tidbit that kind of was gonna segue into one of our other topics about there could be more than one person in the sexual encounter. And so that brings us to the idea of play party. So what is the play party? And how do people go to them and do that? Should they been fun fun, okay, so play Pilates are basically spaces that you can go to, to engage in sets and kink activities with Yeah, with other people in a semi public kind of place. So play is often a word that people use in like BDSM communities to refer to BDSM. Acts And or to sex, hence, the term play parties. And they can be held in private homes, like people can host them in their houses or apartment, they can also be hosted in clubs, whether those are like regular clubs that are taken over or in specialist sex clubs. So it really depends on on where you’re going and what the vibe is. And I think that like it can feel a little overwhelming, maybe for people to be like, Oh, okay, I’m just gonna go to a sex party question. How do they even find out about that? Okay, yeah, that’s a really good question. Yeah. So it really depends on where you live and the kind of scene around you. If you live in like a bigger city, then it shouldn’t be so hard to find like a local kink community can signpost you, if you sign up for a website called FetLife. We’ll link to that as well. Then that’s like a BDSM social networking site. And you can often find parties and people who are in the know there. You can also just look on Facebook sometimes. Why are we Yeah, you would be surprised what you can buy. That’s fascinating. Absolutely. And I think also like, don’t be afraid like if you know one person, like just one person who you know is into something a little bit out there like don’t be afraid to give them a little We’ll nudge and be like, hey, so I’m kind of interested in like, getting into the scene, you know, do you have any tips on like, where I can go what I can do, because they might have access to, for example, or private Facebook groups that they can invite you to or WhatsApp groups or etc. And I mean, it can be a little bit intimidating at first if you don’t really like know anyone, of course. But the thing about play parties is that they often have a lot of rules. And that can be a way to make people feel safe, because it’s like, okay, this is the dress code, I need to follow this. And these are the rules around alcohol, and they need to follow this. And they will often have strict times when you can leave when you can arrive, you know, it’d be like doors open at seven. But make sure that you don’t arrive after eight, you know, because they like to make sure that everyone is like in the space who’s going to be in the space for the night. So you get to know everyone’s faces, and there aren’t like randoms turning up three hours in when your butts in the air. Just you know, this is average Saturday, and I know Yeah, but it was just the idea of creating a safe container. It’s like we’re creating a safe space where we’ve got roles, then, you know, people know what to show up. And I would also add, don’t have like your first thing that like to be to, like go to a play party with a bunch of people you’ve never met, but like most of them will screen people I feel like anyways, like they would want to meet you beforehand. And I wouldn’t say like, look for that, like, you know, if they’re not screening anyone, that’s probably not what you want to go to anyways, yeah, you often will have to fill in some kind of like online form where you describe a bit about yourself. And depending on what kind of party it is, it might be specifically screened. So there’s like a mix of genders mix of ages, like this kind of thing. That’s something to be aware of, especially for single men, often single men are not allowed to attend play parties by themselves. So if you are a Yeah, a single man, then you might need to find a woman who wants to go along with you so that you can gain entry. And that’s just kind of out of like a safety perspective. I think that that kind of grew out of Yeah, it does seem like that. I think it’s the type of thing where, you know, some guys have ruined it for the rest of the guys. And so a lot of guys were very respectful and like want to go to these parties do you kind of need to find a female to go with? And yeah, but there are also a lot of parties that are like queer centered, where, you know, they’re open to all genders. And it’s very, like, explicit that people, well queer people of all genders, and it’s very explicit that people will not be like, gendered at the door. So if you’re a queer person looking for a play party, then that’s something to really look out for. Because that can feel really nice to not feel Yeah, as like a trans or gender non conforming person to feel like you’re going to be scrutinized for having the quote unquote, right gender to end this. I like that. Because yeah, I do think that that like the swinger community, or some of the the scene, quote, unquote, as you mentioned, can be very like gendering. Yes, absolutely. social spaces out there. If you if you know where to look, that actually is helpful to know. And do you think that like, is still the place to go to to find those? Or do you have any recommendations? Definitely, definitely quiz. I haven’t been on Instagram for some years. But I also know that Instagram is a place to like, find out about parties. So you can like a scroll through different BDSM party queer, blah, blah, blah, kind of tags, and try to find things. Cool. I will also add, I think you kind of alluded to this, Christina that the more you kind of just ask questions or speak up a little bit. You know, I know for me, I’m relatively new and St. Petersburg, Florida, where I live. And obviously, being a sex therapist kind of puts it out there for me, I just said my job. And people tell me things. But you know, if you put anything out there that sex positive, I also think people will find you they think there’s a lot of people that maybe don’t lead with that. But once they know someone is friendly to those types of things, they might bring it up. So yes, I cannot agree more. That’s absolutely true official. Like I write about sex and relationships, and I cannot stop people from telling me. I know sometimes it’s like, not on the clock. Yeah. Do you get that you were just like, okay, like, I’m not being paid for this right now. I’m like, You know what, I would be super, super happy to answer your questions, but you will need to pay pal me first. And then we can absolutely talk about it. But it can be a bit much when people you know, like fully want, like, excavate their sexual psyche. And I’m like, well, lady, I don’t know you. And I’m trying to just chill right now. Even sex positive people are not insects mode all the time. Yeah, I’m like, I’m just trying to eat a pizza like. Yeah, that’s important for people to know. Okay, so another thing and this could either be relevant to the play party stuff, but you mentioned identifying as a top or a bottom and I don’t know if that’s a concept everyone knows about. But I do think it’s important and you kind of explained it about kind of like, knowing what you want and asking for it, you know, and that being a bottom isn’t a way out of that, like, I don’t have to do anything and other person will do all the work, you know? Absolutely. This is something that I believe very strongly that identifying as a bottom is not a way out of owning your own desires. So for those who don’t know what top bottom mean, so in the context of like queer sex, well, it has two different meanings. It can mean, the person who is doing the penetrating of the person slash people Yeah. Worth you. And it can also have BDSM, or kink context, where the top is the person who is sort of controlling the dynamic who has the power in the sexual dynamic, the negotiated power, I would like to add, yeah, I think it also is like the top is sort of giving the action and the bottom is like receiving the action. Yeah, but I think that it’s also definitely possible. And this is where it gets a bit messy. You can definitely also like, top from the bottom. So you can you know, instruct someone very firmly driving, you know, yeah. Absolutely. So it’s not always so cut and dry. But yeah, then the bottom is the person who is receiving the sexual acts, or the person who is consensually giving up their power in the sexual dynamic. Yeah, I think that’s interesting, because I feel like it can get a little complicated, like in the kink realm, because there’s also like, the idea of service tops, which like they’re kind of in charge, but it’s like they’re doing it in service of the other person. So like, the person received, it’s still almost like dominance. So anyways, people there’s a lot of nuances here, but you’re getting, like everything to do with sex. It’s like, Yeah, but I don’t know, ask around, do some Googling get into us. We agree on that. You also mentioned women approaching women, and this was something that came up during my listener q&a last month. And I don’t know if I did the topic, justice. Hopefully I did. Okay. But I would love to hear your perspective as a queer woman and what you think about, okay, so I feel like I’ve always been pretty confident when it comes to like, okay, always as a stretch as a teenager, ever since I like moved away from home and like, came into my identity, blah, blah, blah. I think that I’ve been pretty forward if I’m interested in someone. And I found that this really makes me stick out often amongst like, my queer women friends, because they’re like, oh, no, I can’t, I can’t, I don’t want to like, I’m too scared of rejection, or I’m too scared of being creepy. Like, I think a lot of women have internalized this idea that expressing desire for another woman makes you quote, unquote, creepy. And they just really, really don’t want to make another woman feel uncomfortable, which is, of course, admirable, but it comes from like, a place that I would say is internalized homophobia, often, you know, because we grew up thinking that it’s wrong to have these feelings for women, and therefore, it’s doubly wrong to try and express those feelings to women that can be really paralyzing, you know, because you have all of these desires, and you just like, don’t want to put them out there. I mean, I would just say lovingly to queer women out there, like there’s nothing wrong with your desires. For other women. It’s a beautiful thing and thinking that you’re creepy for expressing respectful desire for another woman. That’s not how it is. It’s not creepy at all. And I think that we also internalize the idea that we’re somehow like men, because we also desire women. And it’s like, the dynamic between two men is very different between the dynamic between a man and a woman, you know, if we look at the role that the structures of gender play in our society, like, it’s just, we’re not bringing the same things to the table. So worrying about that, like inherent power imbalance and creepiness is also like, doubly irrelevant. I mean, not to say that there can’t be power imbalances between women, of course, race and class and all sorts of other things like complicate the picture. But ultimately, if you’re worried about being creepy, you’re probably not being creepy. You know, like having that sort of self awareness is like pretty much the first and only step, you know, right? Can we define it though? A little bit because I do get this question, a decent amount where people are like, Oh, I just can’t approach someone because I feel like I’m going to be a creep or I’m going to just come off weird. What do you think is a creepy way to do it? And what do you think is a respectful way to approach? Oh, okay, I think that context is important. Like I don’t think that it’s cool to really like hit on someone if they’re, for example, at work, and they’re kind of trapped somehow that can feel a little bit creepy because then somehow, like the power dynamic is off. If someone is currently being paid to be polite to give that emotional labor to you, then the vibes are off, you know, so don’t hit on like your massage therapist, for instance, Oh, God. It’s super creepy. That’s not the wave. But in a context, you’re both at the bar as paying customers and you’re next to her at the bar. And you notice that she’s cute. And you’re like, Okay, shit, what am I going to do? Turning to her and being like, Hey, I think you’re really pretty. Can I buy you a drink? Or, hey, I really love your hair glasses. I don’t know Doc Martens or other lesbian item of clothing here. You know, that’s not creepy. If she’s not interested, she’ll just say, No, thank you. And then you can just say, oh, okay, have a nice night. Just accepting that interaction gracefully is also a big part of not being creepy, where a lot of men can go wrong is not taking no for an answer. And that’s where things start to veer into creepy town. I could not agree more like sort of being aware of power imbalances and what the context is that you’re in, and then just take a no gracefully, you know, it doesn’t mean that you’re not attractive, it doesn’t mean that you’re undesirable. General, it just means like that moment, that person, not a fit. There’s like millions of other fish in the sea, take the l move on, there’s always someone else. It’s not that deep. It’s never a reflection on like, the deepest, darkest parts of you. It’s really, really not, you know, this person doesn’t know you. It’s so important what you just said. And it’s funny that he used the word important, but it’s almost like we need to lower the stakes, like lower the importance. Like it’s not a big deal. And if you just start doing this regularly, the Oh, baby half the time it works, and half the time it doesn’t like who cares? Absolutely. I cannot I cannot agree more. Yeah, I love what you said for your approach to just like, Oh, you’re pretty high value drink. It’s like so direct. It’s like refreshingly direct. And I feel like we’re so indirect these days. I think that directness is absolutely key as a queer woman approaching another woman, I think it’s very easy for women to get stuck in this. Are we flirting? Or are we being friendly? Like when this woman says that I’m really super hot? Does she mean, like, as a friend? Or is the fuck in the bathroom? Like, what? So I think you’ve sometimes really got to be clear, if you ask a woman out on a date as a woman do not say do you want to hang out sometime? Do not say like, do you want to do XY said say, Yeah, I would like to take you out on a date next week. How does that sound? You know, like, just cut off the ambiguity from the jump. Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been like voice noting back and forth with my friends. And they’re like, Am I on a date? Is this a date? Am I on a date? Am I currently on a date? Is she my girlfriend? I don’t know. You know, like, so just don’t even get it twisted. Just be really clear from now. It’s good advice. Honestly, if I do, I think we’re just like afraid of rejection. So so much. And I’d be just hearing you talk and I hope people who are listening can hear this, like, you just seem like, it’s fine. If I get rejected, it’s fine. Like, I’m good. It really is. It really is. It’s part of dating. You got to shoot your shot. And sometimes you’re going to miss and that’s absolutely fine. You know, right. Like when it matters, you you won’t miss and then you’ll meet people who you have a good connection with. Yeah, and I think I think you bring up such a good point, you know, for queer women, because like women in general will be like, Oh, you’re so fun to hang out with wanna hang out sometime? And like, yeah, so there’s no way to distinguish it from a date unless you say I want to take you out or do you want to go on a date with me? So be clear and specific and just like bold. The other thing though, because after saying this, I’m kind of like, okay, I can see some women kind of being like, I don’t want to like be the pursuer my like being the man if I do that, you know, but being too masculine. So like, what do you think about that? Respectfully, I think there’s this phenomenon of women sort of sitting around being why don’t I have a girlfriend? Or why haven’t I had sex and like two and a half years? Or what’s going on with my love? life.com? Well, if you’re not prepared to like, make moves, it’s very rare that things just like fall into your lap. You need to be a little bit of like an active participant in making your like love and sex life happy. And I can absolutely understand wanting to be pursued and to feel desired. Like, don’t we all absolutely 100% But you know, that doesn’t mean that you can’t initiate something and then let the chase commence from there. A person who is interested in you is going to show you that desire back you can say let’s go on a date. And then the next time they might plan a date, they might be like, Okay, I’m going to pick you up Have a let’s do this. Let’s do that I think you’re really hot blah, blah, blah. But are you really going to sit there and I don’t know, let things pass you by because you have like an idea of how things should be. Or I’m gonna go out there and flirt with someone like, come on. Let’s go chess, go get your flirt on everybody, you heard it. And be clear eye contact, make good eye contact, just lit just a fraction a fraction longer than you need to, and then look away. Look back just a little bit, and then look away again. Yeah, I think you know, for me growing up, it was also like, she just let people come to you were like, don’t be too vulnerable. And don’t put yourself out there. You know, and I think a lot of us got those messages from culture from parents who like wanted to protect us and go ahead just be unprotected. I mean, don’t have unprotected sex, necessarily, unless you’re consenting that risk level. But you know, like, like, you can handle it. I think a lot of us are like, Oh, I can’t handle it. And I think the more we get into your inner security and competence, it’s like, yes, we can. Yeah, it’s a muscle, like, the more you flex it, it’ll grow stronger, and it will feel less and less intimidating. Every single time, you know. Yeah. So let’s assign that as homework to all the listeners, everyone, everyone go blushers your relationship, go like flirt with your partner more obviously, than you normally would and like hit on them a little bit more aggressively than you normally would or just with respect. Realizing you might get a no, and then just know that you’re gonna be okay. Anyway, that’s everyone Tomer, thank you so much for being here, Cassie, I really appreciate it. I love your perspective. I love the humor you bring to it and the confidence and is there any way that people can find you? Do you want people to find you? I know personally, I do not use social media actually. But if people want to get in touch with me they can go to my website which is Christiana boom all one word at journey portfolio.com Or maybe it’s dot journey. That’s like my answer for everything you can tell how terminally online on online I am, which is also so healthy and probably why you have good flirting skills. Right, right. Yeah. Feel free to to send me an email or you know, yeah, yeah, you can check out her work, too. I mean, I found some cool articles on her website, too. And she’s written about some pretty awesome stuff. So I’ve written about pretty much everything and anything you can think of to do with sex and relationships. So go have a scroll through and see if you can find something to your liking. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for being here. And thanks, everybody, for listening. And we will catch you next Monday. Bye bye.
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