037
If you’re a woman, yeah, and, and you insist the treacle and no one is arguing you’re equal? Yeah. How could you like how could you be equal? And then look down on someone who makes less than you? How could you say men and men have been doing this? For millennia? Yeah. Right. I would anybody tell me that I settled on my wife because she made less than me. Would any woman come and say, I tell you, she made less than me. So why would you be settling if you’re with a guy who made less? It’s the only double standard? Yeah, every double standard works against women. It’s the only double standard that women are like, we’re cool with this one. All right, I’m equal to men, but I still want them to pay for every only one. Everything works against women. That one. I really still love chivalry. I gotta admit, I know. I’m totally guilty of that myself. Because I’m like, I want a really progressive guy who thinks of everything like in this, you know, new, very conscious kind of way. But then like, yeah, he could pay for like, at least the first date or so like that. He should do that too. Right. Like, at least that one would be great if he was just like, yeah, very generous all the time. Like, I wouldn’t hate that, you know. But yeah, I can admit that. That’s a double standard.
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Hey, everybody, we are here for a fun episode. Today we’re gonna get into gender roles, you know, what should they be? What are they? How much say do we have in it? What really works. But before we get into our guests and topic today, I’m going to read the review of the week. So this one says overcoming purity culture. As someone who was raised in purity culture, this podcast has been helpful and Reclaiming my sexuality five stars. So thank you for this review. And if this is your review, and you’re listening, reach out to us you actually have won a bundle of sex and relationship books. So we will hook you up and thank you for supporting the show. So today’s guest is Evan Mark Katz and I know him personally and he’s great, but I’m gonna read his official bio before we get into today’s discussion. So Evan Mark Katz became the world’s first Dating Coach in 2003. Specializing in helping smart, successful women create lasting love. He’s the author of four books, His love you podcast has over 2 million downloads, and he’s been featured in hundreds of media outlets, including today, The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. It’s an unlikely career for a man much less a man who was once called a serial dater by CNN. Yet that’s what makes cat so unique by helping women understand men what they think, how they act what they want. He encourages them to raise the bar on what to expect for men and never again settle for a dissatisfying relationship. Ivan’s coaching philosophy is based on the belief that successful relationships require a combination of emotional intelligence, self awareness and practical skills. He teaches his clients to communicate effectively set healthy boundaries and navigate the ups and downs of dating with confidence. Known for his honesty and directness. Evan is not afraid to challenge his clients and push them out of their comfort zones, but he always does so in a supportive and non judgmental way. His goal is to help women break free from limiting beliefs and behaviors that are holding them back and to empower them to create the love life they deserve. Now happily married for 15 years, Evan believes you can find love no matter where you live, how old you are, or how challenging your previous relationships were. And he has the results to prove it. Over 13,000 Women have graduated from love you Evans coaching program and community for women who are tired of being alone, exhausted by dating and ready for a truly equal partner by providing hands on support structure and accountability and teaches women to become the CEOs of their love lives and attract high value commitment oriented partners. If you’re an intelligent, successful woman who feels like you have everything except for love, Evan offers a step by step action plan to finally get the life of your dreams. He lives in Los Angeles with his incredibly cool, incredibly patient wife and their two surprisingly funny children. So welcome, Evan. So excited to have you here. I’m so embarrassed by that bio could have done like the one paragraph version of that initial one I just the logger was going, I was like, oh, please stand up, everyone gets like that. It really captures your style. And so I will also just say at the beginning of this episode, I am one of them undergraduates, and like he knows his shit, and he really cares. And he will also call you out on your bullshit. And we have to be honest that a lot of us need that. Right. I’m grateful to be here. I’m really excited. I’m proud of what you’ve created for yourself, Heather, always a star student. I knew you’re going. I’ll take it. Thank you. So the reason I reached out to Evan about this episode in particular is because I was listening to his podcast love you, which is also excellent, you should check it out. And he did an episode recently, I think was in April, about gender roles. And I was just like, oh, this is so good. I want to have him come on the show and talk about this topic with people because I just think we’re in like, an interesting phase of our culture, kind of where it’s like, when my parents were growing up, it was, you know, more of the 1950s housewife and like really clear more traditional gender roles. And then now it’s kind of like, are you going to be like criticized as a woman, if you like, don’t work outside the house? Or like, Is it weird if you’re a stay at home dad? And like, then are you being like emasculated? You know, so I just feel like there’s all this like confusion and like, I don’t know, so. So what what are your thoughts on this topic? I guess, just broadly, I mean, you had some really good things to say. And I know you also have some personal experience with it. I think, I think, no matter what I say, I’m going to end up putting my foot in my mouth, I’m going to accidentally piss someone off. Tension, if anything, what we’re doing is observing what’s going on and trying to make sense of all the changes. It’s not like, it’s not like I got a horse in the race about how things are supposed to be. But as a coach for women, I’m hearing their experience and what they’re wrestling with. And yeah, I think I think I think it’s safe to say that it’s a confusing time for a number of reasons. So where do you want to jump into this? So one of the things you brought up in your episode was this article about gay and lesbian relationships that I thought was so so interesting, and it was kind of like, what can we learn from gay and lesbian relationships and kind of bring into hetero relationships as well? Yeah, I think the clarity, the piece of clarity, I think is what’s really important. Because it doesn’t matter what you choose, it’s more about are you clear? Have you communicated about it? And is it intentional? Because I think where people can get misaligned is like, we didn’t really think about it, we just fell into these roles, but they’re not actually what we want. And like you said, then that’s gonna lead to people not feeling happy. And it’s hard to renegotiate. And I think it was one of the things that we talked about on that love your podcast was fair, we create roles for ourselves. And then we later resent the role we created. Yes, right. I say that. And that was a great line. And I think that works both ways. Right? Like, I’m glad my dad was this way. But I’m glad to be the breadwinner, I wouldn’t want to have my wife’s chosen role. The thing she chose to do was leave work. I didn’t tell her should she should leave work. She chose to do that. But it’s exhausting being the breadwinner in a certain way. Yeah, to know that everything rests on you to know that if you get a birthday gift, you pay for it like that, that’s there’s a cost to that. Yeah, my wife works harder than I do. Because my job ends at 630. That job, she’s doing permission forms for summer camp at midnight, and folding laundry, her job is non stop. And so I think this is really useful. We’re at a moment in time where, because of the pandemic, because of where societies gone, I think men are starting to get more appreciative. They see what their wives are doing more traditionally. And the younger generation is is less gendered anyway. Right. But then we get into the really interesting conversation is, is that for the best two? Or have we created just a different set of problems? Now that because women are equal to men hate pay gap has been in most cities largely eliminated, right? There’s, we can get into the science of that. But for the most part, I’ve got clients who are very successful, fine, they’re more successful than a lot of men that they’re meeting. So this is not a problem for a lot of women. The problem is, they don’t want to necessarily be in the traditional masculine breadwinner role. And then they resent the fact that they got that and they want the guy to take care of it, but they don’t necessarily want to be the little woman at home taking care of business so so we’ve opened up the world we have open not more choices. Yeah. And I think women have evolved and, and men have have evolved. That sounds about accurate. Uh huh. In general. But listening, I’m not gonna get into evolutionary biology. I’m not an expert in any of this. But my observation from the outside is a guy who has been married for 15 years and found a role that we we both like listening to women, middle aged women, for the most part, talk about the relationships, they are appreciative that men are more sensitive than they’ve ever been before. Yeah, they really miss old school masculinity, guys, you know, making plans, right? Not just like, you know, you know, tell me when you want to hang out, like the guy who like calls and plans and pays and takes care business makes the first move and right, you got, you’ve got a whole generation of guys who are essentially like women, again, I don’t mean that in like a bad way. But like, you have these people who are both taking sort of passive reactive role. Well, are you gonna call me? Are you gonna call me? Yeah, are you gonna pay are you gonna pay right now nobody knows what anybody’s doing. And a lot of women love economic freedom, but kind of miss guys taking the lead and let you roll with it, don’t think you’re wrong. There’s, there’s so many places to go with this. And even what you said about like, the younger generation, just kind of identifying less with gender in general. I mean, in some of the things you’re mentioning, I’m thinking, those are just kind of good qualities in the human period. You know, like, even with, like, girlfriends, I love if someone like initiates a plan, or suggests a plan. Like I kind of almost think we all love that a little bit. But anything with sex, you know, with my role, like, I get a lot of dudes that are kind of like, you know, I don’t mind initiating, but like, also be nice if she initiated once in a while, you know? So I think it’s like finding that balance. And I know a lot of sex coaches are like Tantra teachers talk a lot about polarities and how that’s important for sexual attraction, like having masculine energy and feminine energy. And if you’re both feminine, or if you’re both masculine, how, you know, maybe you’re not going to have enough of that polarity. So I’m curious about that. Like if everyone’s kind of moving and more of a, I don’t know that this is the case. So I hope people listening, don’t freak out about it. But like, if people are moving in warm and androgynous direction or non binary direction, like what will that mean, for polarity? What will that mean for you know, sexual attraction? I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to the question. I can theorize that it’ll either be a great boon. In as much as you have more options on the menu, you could find something very specific to your flavor. Yeah. I like that. Right. So there’s, there’s infinite options. I also think I was talking about this with a friend and the car last night, more options creates a tremendous amount of confusion in the human brain. If you’re familiar with the book, The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz, much easier to order from a menu, you know, chicken, fish and steak, than it is to order from a menu with 1000 options. And that’s what online dating is. Yep. And the further along we get into no gender, no sex, it’s just a spectrum. I would imagine. Unlike the old again, there’s an old Woody Allen line. I don’t know if you’re allowed to quote Woody Allen being bisexual doubles your chances of getting a date, like this is from the 70s, right? Alright, so being bisexual doubles your chances today, you’re not open to everybody. I gotta guess there’s a downside to that. I would think it’d be particularly confusing, because it’s confusing for straight people to find one person they really like, imagine the double dating pool? Does it give you more options, or more paralysis? If you don’t even know which gender you’re going for? Yeah, it’s gonna be so fascinating. I also just interviewed Zachary Zane. And he wrote a book called by sloth or voiceless, and he’s bisexual, and very sexually active with all sorts of people, regardless of gender. So that could also be the option. It’s just more non monogamy to like, take advantage of all the options. I don’t know why. I think the point of all of these things is not that these not that they should be shoved back in the closet, metaphorically, but rather, there’s always a cost that goes on Calculate, if you might even remember from love you. All good qualities come with bad qualities. The charismatic guy might be a flirt, who doesn’t want to commit to you and the brilliant guy might be really stubborn and arrogant and dismissive of your opinions. And the rich guy might be a workaholic. Yes, this is real. And you made us do the husband picker thing. Where we had to kind of look at where we’re at. We’re all kind of like a walking pro and con list right? It’s like, you can’t be human and not have anything that is a flaw. So I think right so so as it pertains to this conversation yeah more choice no one’s ever going to want to take away our choices that society we’re in now right creates a different set of unintended problems because right okay we you can be a buy slut I don’t judge you from being a by slut I was just a slept without the by it’s fine. But I will tell you that longitudinal studies show that people in happy, healthy monogamous relationships are the happiest people of all in the long run interesting. Like, that’s not a you know, like having more choice doesn’t always Yeah, translate to happiness, any more than I don’t know, theoretically waking up every day and freelancing at a new company would be better than building a career one company like, so there’s something to be said for consistency and stability. The downside? Right? Here’s the downside of that. People get a little boring, right? Yeah, it’s all good point. And yeah, I’m thinking about the the gender roles too. I’ve also had guys come in that I’ve worked with, who have talked about like, Oh, my wife makes more than me or my girlfriend makes more than me. And like, what is my role? And like, how do I feel like the man and like, you know, it’s sometimes would affect the sexual attraction. So I don’t equate like breadwinner necessarily as being like, has to be a woman or a man or it’s your less feminine or more masculine necessarily, I get that traditionally, you know, it was a man in that role. But I feel like you can still be pretty masculine in OFAC. So, we have to, we have to decouple that we have to I totally agree, right? Because, and this is this is, you know, one of the things it’s a little bit more challenging. Instead of validating, we talked about it before we got on the air. If you’re a woman, yeah. And as you insist the treacle and no one is arguing you’re equal? Yeah. How could you like, how could you be equal? And then look down on someone who makes less than you? How could you say men? For millennia? Yeah. Right. I would anybody tell me that I settled on my wife because she made less than me. Would any woman come and say, I tell you, she made less money? So why would you be settling if you’re with a guy who made less? It’s the only double standard? Yeah, every double standard works against women. It’s the only double standard that women are like, we’re cool with this one. All right, I’m equal to men, but I still want him to pay for every only one. Everything works against women. That one. I really still love chivalry, I gotta admit, I know. I’m totally guilty of that myself. Because I’m like, I want to really progressive guy who thinks of everything like in this, you know, new, very conscious kind of way. But then like, yeah, if he could pay for, like, at least the first date or so like that? He should do that. too, right. Like, at least that one would be great. If he was just like, yeah, very generous all the time. Like, it wouldn’t hate that, you know. But yeah, I can admit that. That’s a double standard. And it’s okay. There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s plenty of them. I think part of the challenge of my job as a dating coach for high achieving women, is that you’re dealing with already a pretty small slice of the pie. Right? And so what percentage of men make more than you do? And are we are we going to exclusively restrict ourselves to men who make more, because men don’t restrict themselves to that. So why should women respect themselves to that? So I think it’s a real, real conundrum. If we could get past the idea that the man has to be the protector and provider because you don’t need protection on a day to day basis. And he doesn’t really have to provide for you on a day to day basis. So regardless of what gender roles you choose to incorporate, chances are you’re either breadwinner, or you’re responsible for the household, or you’re responsible for children, or some kind of combination, most likely, right? And so it’s can be stressful to be in charge of anything. And that’s where I really like what educated has to offer. You don’t have to come up with the answers yourself. You don’t have to figure out okay, how do we get to connect? How do we what do we do during this time that you know, we’ve set aside to connect, you just like press Play video, and you’re good to like turn your brain off a little bit, which is really nice. One of the things I see most with couples that I work with, is that relaxation is a prerequisite to have a really good sexy time for at least one if not both of the partners. And so this week, I checked out a dedicated course called grow together and it incorporated Tantra and relaxation, with intimacy for couples. And so this can be a great type of tool that you can use before sex, or even just separate from sex. If you’re like, let’s just connect in via relaxed and look into each other’s eyes and do these breathing exercises. So if you are curious to check out what else medicated has to offer, they have options for solo sex for partner and sex for overall enhancing your relationship. So you can visit educated.com and enter the code ask ask a for 40% discount or click the link in the show notes. Go get educated guys. So imagine a situation Heather, where there’s a man who makes $200,000. And there’s a woman who makes $50,000, right? In that dating courtship process, how things work? He doesn’t let her lift a finger. Right? He pays for everything. Why? Because he makes $200,000. She makes a lot less. Yeah, it feels right. If he’s, if she’s making him out, something feels wrong about that. Right? Around $1,000. Man makes $50,000 I know, how should that work? I think we have very different feelings about that as a society, which is fascinating. Right? So this is where we get into the Okay, equals or not equals, because I I’ve been in both of those situations. Oh, really? So interesting. So what? You were the guy making 50. And she made more. It’s where I first came up with these ideas. I was 31. She was 38. I was starting out in this business. And she was a senior vice president owned her own condo in Santa Monica. And I’m writing people’s dating profiles for $99 a pop? Yep. And within two weeks, you know, she she was we’re celebrating her birthday at a five star hotel in Cabo. And I was like, I could do a $700 a night room like you understand. I’m a failed screenwriter who just found a something he can do. Right? So I ended up picking up half. Okay, which was what felt awful. Like some guys would be like, you know, I got this one, I’m gonna bankrupt myself. I’m making 50 grand a year I’m supposed to spend. So it was really, it was where I recognize the inherent insensitivity of that that posture. Like, again, I’m, I’m I’m not cheap. I’m poor. That’s different. Right. And it’s different. Yeah. And so. And then again, the roles were reversed. And a few years later, and that’s when I got married. That was largely That’s that situation, right. And so that’s when I became really acutely aware of women want men to pick up stuff, even when they’re not in the position to pick up stuff. And if he doesn’t, if he even box at that, then it’s indicative of, you know, a lack of thoughtfulness, generosity and chivalry, rather than just like, hey, let’s look at our respective situations. Right. Right. And I think there’s so many other ways aside from financial, like, I’m just thinking of the five love languages. And so maybe if you know, finances aren’t your strong suit, and you still want to kind of provide some sort of, you know, protector provider energy. Maybe it’s like, holding someone or cuddling them or being their cheerleader and lifting them up, or, you know, fixing their car for them or something that like you can do that isn’t necessarily about financial, but you’re still able to feel, you know, like, a guy. There’s, there’s, there’s a lot of models of this because very few people, you know, embody pure masculine energy, pure feminine energy, like we’re all, we’re all sort of blends of both. I have a friend who’s got a husband, who, he’s the artist. He’s like, the, the dreamer. She’s the she’s the breadwinner, he helps out with her business. Right? He does stuff to make her life better. But my knees fly in planes or, or, or, I don’t know, you know, going up for acting parts or writing things or playing guitar. He’s always he’s always up to something or another. But, but he’s got intelligence. He’s got opinions. He takes the lead in the bedroom. Right? So he’s a traditional man in every way apart from the money part. Right. And Jesus made peace with that. Yeah. And again, I’m not saying that you the listeners should have to make peace with it. I think the conundrum is that, and this is from my second book, why you’re still single women and again, I know I sound like whatever I do, I’m mansplaining. But technically, that’s my job. Explain. I have embraced it. And it’s a safe space to embrace that. A lot of women want the Marlboro Man and The sensitive artist wrapped up in one. Yes. All right, I want the guy who’s stoic and takes care of business makes me feel feminine and taken care of. Yeah. Right. But that guy doesn’t want to talk about his feelings. And he really doesn’t want to listen to yours. I know. And then you find the guy you really connect with, like your best girlfriend, and sometimes he’s going to be vulnerable. And sometimes he’s going to be weak. And sometimes he’s going to be scared, and he’s not going to be the rock. And you don’t get all of both, you get a blend, and you just got to decide what side of that blend you’re willing to take. Right? And anybody who’s expecting their husband to be the Marlboro Man, and the sensitive artist is going to be very disappointed in real life men. Right? I think and I don’t know what the I don’t know what the comparison is. Maybe it’s the partner at the law firm and Suzy homemaker like, yeah, that’s like a comparison. Yeah, I mean, I think what you’re saying makes a lot of sense. And I think, bringing it back to the article about gay relationships and why they have higher satisfaction levels than straight relationships, like on average, I think it’s like, your when there’s not like a template laid out for you, or it’s like, Hey, there’s this autopilot default way of doing things that you can just buy into kind of unconsciously, and you have to consciously figure out okay, well, we haven’t been given that is to women or as to men. So we actually have to communicate, and we actually have to figure out, what are your strengths? And what are my strengths and like, what makes sense for us? And I think that straight couples need to learn from that and to not fall into the default autopilot and to really question, you know, what are our strengths? You know, and let’s play to our strengths and figure it out. I don’t know if this is unique to straight couples. But I think people are generally loath to talk about issues that may cause discomfort, no one wants to run or ruffle feathers, what we’ll do is just bury it and build up resenting it. And then it’ll come out in some fight later. But instead of just dealing with it as it comes up, as it happens, sitting down, hey, let’s recalibrate this, I’m feeling a little off. And here’s why. Yeah, it’s just, you know, years will go by I remember, there was a matchmaker back in the day, who used to say, I find it so ironic that people are more willing to have sex with strangers than talk about sex with strangers. Do you really want to talk about sex with the person they’re having sex with? Right? But real have uneasy sex with someone out of inertia and obligation? Instead of saying the present? What does this mean to me? What are you like, right? Like we’re so conflict averse, we’re so afraid of rejection or things blowing up? That’s to say nothing. Right? And I mean, really, people think they’re being safer by doing that. But like, what you’re doing is choosing a slow deterioration, and misery. That’s the way I look at it. It’s not safer. It’s the illusion of being safer. The actual better route is to communicate and have the tough discussion and get good and having those discussions. It’s just a skill set. That’s really wise. Heather, I to piggyback on that, I’m trying to figure out how to say this. Like, conversations don’t change people’s minds. They reveal what they’re already thinking. So anytime, again, I coach women, if you’re afraid to ask your boyfriend, are we a couple? If that’s a perfect example of like, a thing that someone’s afraid to talk, we’ve been dating for eight weeks, what are we? Yeah, if you ask him, you’ll get an answer. Right? Right. The asking is like, if he wants to be your boyfriend, you’d be like, well, of course, of course. I’m your boyfriend. Right? But what you couldn’t tell him? Right? But you ask, is that going to be like, Oh, I was interested in your brain. But now that you asked me, I’m out of here. That’s a turn off. Yeah. Some people are so afraid of having conversation. It’s like not getting the results of your your AIDS test, because you’re afraid of the results. So I’m just gonna take the test, I’m never going to look at the results. Because I don’t want to know the answer. Right? It’s like the truth is the truth. And it’s there regardless, like you’re saying, right? And so people can hide and hide and hide, and some are like, just bring the truth to the surface deal with in the way no one’s judging. No one’s attacking, so much easier to resolve any issue if you deal with it, rather than burying it. I know. And I also want to say, I get it, it’s tempting to avoid things, you know, like, as much as I’m all about, let’s, you know, uncover things and let’s like the inner work and blah, blah, blah. It’s also like, there’s, there’s things I don’t always want to look at. You know, I think that’s also partially cultural. I mean, I think I think it has a lot to just like anything, I mean, you probably even have a greater grasp on it than I do, because to sex therapy, things that that are normalized as kids good and bad. That play out much later. Right? If you grew up in a culture that there is stuff you’re gonna, the way you handle things. If you grow Jewish Comparing anything, really? Yeah. Yeah, it’s all on the surface. Yeah. Very again, this is this is again, the good and the bad. Yeah. Right. That’s right. There was an old Fraser episode about this where he phrases all waspy. And he can’t communicate with his dad. And he’s dating Amy Brennaman in there with her mom. And she and her mom are like having an out fighting. And that the end, they hug and they tell each other, they love each other. And to make it all better. Frasier and his dad are looking at each other. Like, we can’t do that. That’s not right. So you’re gonna have more open communication, more potential friction, right? But it’ll be real, it’ll be authentic, right, there’s a chance that things could get stronger and heal, as opposed to nothing feels when you don’t deal with it. It’s the only chance that’s how I look at it, it’s like that is your only chance for making it better. So I guess what we’re trying to say is, please don’t have these conversations, if your gender roles are not working. And if you need us, you can hire us as your coach. I do think it’s tricky. When it’s like you sign up for a job, and then you don’t want the job. But you can’t quit. Right? Like a real job. You can’t marriage You can’t quit your kids. My wife can’t be like, I’m just done making meals for the family. I’m just saying, or you’re just done earning money. Sorry, honey, you gotta be the breadwinner now. Same idea. And it’s just that’s not on the table, then the goal is how do I do this? How do I get support to do this? So it’s not all on me? Right? How can I do the same thing and make it more fun? How can I maybe take it off my plate? And maybe not do it or care as much about it? Yeah, it’s life. It’s work. It’s entrepreneurship. It’s marriage. It’s kids. It’s and I share this really openly? Least on my podcast, I wouldn’t mind sharing it on yours. Yeah, I have genuinely like, super happy marriage. It’s not like a public posture. I do, too, you know, for PR, I can’t think of too many things that I would want to change. But I also recognize that there are nights that my wife has tears in her eyes, because she’s bleary eyed, from all the things that she has on her plate. And I’ve had readers yell at me. How dare you let her deteriorate to that condition, and I’m like foisting her into this. And she’s taking this on, and being supermom, and a treasurer of the school and the class mom, and the carpool mom. She’s taken all of it on, right and taking too much on. Right. All right. She can’t transfer that, to me. It’s not that I wouldn’t help her. I’m not like in my masculine role. And Honey, that’s a woman’s. Literally, she’s bitten off more than she could chew. And there’s times where I’m like, you don’t seem happy? When I do, right? Make you happy. And that’s the governor, you do the laundry, I could do the laundry. Like I could do that. Like, right, I walk the dog in the morning, so she never has to deal with the dog. She makes dinner because I’m working with her. So she makes dinner and the kids eat different things that like nobody eats the same thing. So she’s the only one who knows what’s going on. What can we take off of your plate, right? She’s someone who just adds things to her plate to the point that she’s willing to, she’s ready to break. And so this is, I don’t know if it’s gender role thing. But there’s a book, Jennifer Sr. I don’t know the title. I love her. She’s an amazing Pulitzer Prize winning writer, put in the notes. It’s something like, you know, all the work and none of the fun, you know, 21st century parenting. Right, where you’ve taken this on this thing, I’ve left my job and I’m going to take my type a miss, and I’m going to put kids, right, but at the expense of my own mental health, right. So it’s weird, the gender thing there where like women can be really self sacrificing or like overly giving kind of at their own expense. And I do think that’s somewhat encouraged more so for women than men. The irony is that I’m like, in our family, I’m the self help one. She’s not the one who’s like, self. I’m like, honey here. I read this 300 page book, and I highlighted the passages for you for how you can take something off your mom. And she’s like, I don’t have time to read this. highlighted it though. I’m not kidding you. I’ve I’ve so sweet though. Honest. I read an entire parenting books and give her Cliff Notes. Yeah. And she’s not this is who she is. This is who her mom was like, which is bound by that, right? Except how she is you know, I hear that like, you’re not trying to change her. And I think that so this is also a love you thing, if you might recall the difference between constructive and destructive criticism. These are criticism is for you. I don’t like something about you change. Constructive is designed, genuinely designed to help. The kinds of things that I’m doing this isn’t about me. You’re the one who’s pulling an all nighter at age 53. Oh my goodness. Right? Yeah. That doesn’t feel healthy, right? And you don’t have again, you don’t have the breadwinning day job to say I just have that, like, you’ve chosen this. There’s got to be working moms who are not pulling all nighters. So why are you pulling all nighters? How can we ease the burden? What can I just let like instead of doing 120%, can you do 80%? With that, right? It’s so hard being like a type A person, though, sometimes, like, I think like the perfectionism and the type eight is like, it’s real, I find it. It’s one of those things that again, it’s the term is, you know, emotional labor. And you know, and the going thing is, men don’t understand, this is my entire job as women, right, and try to practice what I learned from one another on my own marriage. It’s probably why you’re there. You’re working with the clay that you’re given, I might even throw my wife under the bus. And as I said, I’m really high. Sounds amazing. From everything I’ve heard about Sure. Over the years. Yeah, but you don’t even like it doesn’t begin to capture like, like a really, I’m not gonna spend your podcast talking about my wife, but like, my wife isn’t magic. She’s the coolest, funniest person ever. only person who could put up with me. So I was like, I’m gonna hold on to that forever. Yeah. And I’m a I’m a self help person, I’m a, if this isn’t working, I’m gonna figure out how to make it better. And she’s not leave this thread on this conversation for dating. And I was early phases of being a dating coach certainly wasn’t one of the awareness I have now. And I was like, You got to read this book. You got to read this book, you got to take. Like, like a true evangelist. Yeah, we get so excited. Right? And she says, Evan, I’m just going to gently point out to you that I’ve never gone to therapy. I’ve never read a self help book. I’ve never taken one of these courses. I’m happier than you. So shut the fuck out. Like, okay, my crop you. That’s like a literal mic drop moment. It was totally. And that’s, that’s when I realized it, right? She’s talking she’s, you know, she’s gonna be the same person. She was in high school. And she didn’t have to deal with the consequences of not evolving, right? But it’s usually it’s the usually the role reversal. And women marry men hoping the men evolve with them over time. It’s true. And then say, Where’s the woman? I’m married when she was in her 20s? How come she’s not the same? And our relationship is different because of my chosen profession, and whatever. So it’s, it’s interesting. Well, I think bring it back to gender roles to kind of wrap things up. So it’s like, in certain ways, are the traditional guy because you’re like the breadwinner, and you know, the role and she’s kind of the stay at home mom. But then in other ways, like, you’re the one who’s like, into like, all the like, self help and relationship stuff, and communication and like all of that stuff. And she’s kind of like, oh, pass. There’s a great book called Kiss your fights goodbye, which we talked about and love you. Dr. Jamie turndorf is a couple’s counselor. And she says, I wrote this book for women because women are the emotional caretakers of the relationship. I’m the emotional caretaker of my relationship. Right, right. She’s the acts of service person. Right? Like, like, like, like, very much like a guy who’s like, you know, I took I took out the I took out the trash. So you know, I love you. Like, like, that’s, that’s my wife. I tell her I love her probably 10 times more that she tells me show me she loves me because my mom was supposed to come out this weekend. And so she had the house cleaned. And she got she made reservations. And she she does things right. Like that’s her love language. And it’s but it’s not the words of affirmation that I’m so Willington, because I’m a writer. So once you kind of like dig into all of this stuff, and you say, Okay, this is who she is, she’s not going to change, this is who I am. Right. And as long as we can accept the 10%, where we just don’t really overlap, we’re gonna have a really great relationship. And this is usually what I talked about on podcast, it’s not so much gender roles. Yeah, as much as what does a healthy long term relationship look and feel like a lot of people haven’t experienced that. Right? Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I think hearing that about you and your wife is like there’s part traditional and part not traditional and, you know, maybe that’s the direction we’re going in of just like, you know, everybody roles in different areas, regardless of how we identify gender wise. Yeah, right. So that’s everybody, like old school people like me, sis head, straight white guy. I’m not trying to impose anything I’m always saying, here’s something that worked for me if what you’re doing isn’t working for you, right in terms of the partners you’re choosing and their ability to stick long term. Yeah, maybe there’s something to explore that you can do differently, make different choices with partners that are going to be long term more compatible. Alright, so to conclude, if people are like, Oh, I like what this Evan guy is putting down where can I find more about him? Where can they find you, Evan? Oh, I’m endlessly gullible Heather. Trouble. Evan, Mark katz.com, ABN ma RC ka t z.com. Giving your readers a gift today, they could put an F Mark test.com forward slash dating. And it’s an eight massive mistakes are making in dating and it is 25 pages and every page you’ll be like, Oh shit I’m doing that. I’m also doing now. I might go. It’s one of the things you get from the gift of genuinely listening to women for four hours a day. Yeah, people will reveal themselves. So if you enjoy that, certainly check out my loving podcast and a giveaway and follow me on every social channel, Evan Mark Katz or Evan Mark Katz fan. I give away a lot of free stuff. And I’m just really thrilled to be here with you, Heather, you’re really engaging, very different podcast interview than I normally do. Yeah, no scripts, just kind of riffing. And so that was just a lot of fun. Yeah, well, thank you so much for being here, Evan. And if you guys have been listening, Evan is the real deal. I can vouch for it. So check out his podcast and website and we will link to those in the show notes. And thank you so much, Kevin.
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