066: Living That “Cougar” Life with Rachel Burch
Rachel Burch [00:00:00]:
Oh, I don’t know. I was waiting for her to say something like, is this your son? Why are you young child out? Like, I don’t know. I expected, but she just was like, can I take your drink order? And I could feel like I was like, she just thinks we’re normal. I mean, it’s not like I brought a blow up doll and was like, this is my date. Yes. Can you serve us? But I fully expected, I don’t know, some kind of know, treatment.
Heather [00:00:30]:
This is the ask a sex therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I’m Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I’ll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships and enjoying your body. Because it’s time for you to ask a sex therapist. Hello, my loves. I am back with a very extra special episode because this is my first time ever having a really close friend on the podcast. So today we’re having a special someone who I met through podcasting. So we met at the podfest global online last year, and we had both done the same health coaching certificate back in the day, and we just started talking. And then I listened to her podcast, and I was like, oh, my God, this is so good.
Heather [00:01:21]:
And then I was like, I wonder if this lady will be, like, my podcast masterminding buddy. And her podcast is doing really well, too. And so that kicked off what has become like a beautiful checking in, often multiple times per day friendship with the lovely Rachel Birch, who is the host of Love before 100, which chronicles her personal dating journey and sometimes her personal sex journey. So welcome, Rachel.
Rachel Burch [00:01:51]:
Thanks for having me. That was a beautiful introduction. I’m so excited to be here. Yeah, I know.
Heather [00:01:57]:
I just made it up, so I’m.
Rachel Burch [00:01:58]:
Glad it went well. So good.
Heather [00:02:00]:
So we’re going to talk about cougaring being a cougar today, and I’m very excited about this just because, I don’t know, I feel like it’s something I’ve thought about that maybe I haven’t been super comfortable with. I know you’ve been on kind of a journey with it. I know your listeners know that there was a little rendezvous with, I don’t know what we’re calling him on your podcast. I won’t say any actual names with a certain someone, though, at the end of your last episode. So I’m excited to get into it. What made you intrigued by this cougaring idea?
Rachel Burch [00:02:40]:
Well, it’s so funny because, as you know from listening to the podcast, at the end of my first season, I go to a cougar bar and I go on ad nauseam about how I’m not a cougar. I’m definitely not a cougar. I’m just going to observe them because they are interesting to me. Like, what are they? Like, what do they wear? Oh, they wear, like, snakeskin and leopard print, like faux fur and stuff like that. I have this whole image of what that must be like in my mind. And it’s just so funny how the universe provides us with these lessons where things come full circle. So my podcast, and we’ve talked about this, having a podcast is just an amazing opportunity to meet people, to grow all sorts of things. And so I had a guest on my podcast, and she is a passion coach.
Rachel Burch [00:03:31]:
And she had said sex between a woman in her forty s and a man in his 20s can be like the most empowering, magical thing. And that was kind of all I needed to hear to be like, okay. Because I used to be on dating apps where they would approach me and I deleted the app. I was just kind of like, what is the matter with you? Like, who hurt you? Why are you trying to reach out to a woman that could be your mom? These are the thoughts that really occurred to me. And I do stand up comedy. I even had a whole stand up comedy bit about it because I just thought it was so ridiculous. Yeah, I did.
Heather [00:04:07]:
I didn’t even know that. Okay, what did you say in your comedy?
Rachel Burch [00:04:11]:
So it’s actually pretty funny because everybody’s talking about different kinds of math now. So I would say that all these young men approach me and that when I talk to my friends, I get two responses. The women friends, all of them think it’s crazy. Except I have this one friend, and she says, 225 year olds equals 150 year old. That’s cougar math. So we have cougar math. And then I would say, but the men across the board, my male friends, always say, congratulations. And I would go, congratulations.
Rachel Burch [00:04:49]:
You know, I didn’t birth this baby, right? He came out of somebody else. He just wants to go back in me. So that was my. Which I’ve shared on two of my dates with my young suitor.
Heather [00:05:04]:
You did not.
Rachel Burch [00:05:05]:
Oh, yeah. They think it’s funny. I’m like, I’m so in a.
Heather [00:05:08]:
Hilarious.
Rachel Burch [00:05:09]:
Yeah, I just don’t help it.
Heather [00:05:11]:
Oh, my God. I didn’t know that you had put that in your stand up before. That’s so funny. Okay, so you’re really full circle. But it didn’t take much to kind of get you there, which is interesting.
Rachel Burch [00:05:23]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:05:23]:
Okay. And I have to say, too, I’m not a super biased judgy person. I think in this area my thing would be like, are they going to just seem too young? Are you going to enjoy hanging out with them? Are you going to feel kind of like they don’t know anything and I can’t respect them? Does any of that stuff come up?
Rachel Burch [00:05:44]:
Yes. I’m not sure your audience, they understand my sense of humor yet. So I preface this with I’m sort of kidding, but I identify as super judgy only in the sense of I looked at it as like, that’s not for me.
Heather [00:06:02]:
It wasn’t really not you guys.
Rachel Burch [00:06:04]:
It wasn’t like I wanted to pass a law against it or stop anyone from doing it. It was more just like, what’s actually going on there? I live in Newport beach. I’ll see like an 80 year old man with a 30 year old woman. And I judge that. I’m like, that’s not love.
Heather [00:06:19]:
Yeah, but I still judge that one.
Rachel Burch [00:06:21]:
You know what I’m going to say? Shame on me. Maybe it is. I doubt it, but maybe it is. So I will say that was something that came up. And honestly, I’ve had a range of people, the majority of them are too immature for me, but they’re in their twenty s. I expect them. There are men in their forty s and fifty s that are too immature for me. You know what I mean? So many, it’s just so bad.
Rachel Burch [00:06:48]:
The guy that I’m now seeing, the 26 year old, he’s 26 now. He had a birthday, so it’s okay. He’s not 20.
Heather [00:06:55]:
That’s exciting.
Rachel Burch [00:06:56]:
Yeah. He’s so mature. I mean, he’s more mature than I am in a lot of ways. He served in the national guard. He’s seen a lot of things that I haven’t seen. He grew up in the midwest, I grew up in California. He brings a lot to the table in a kind of stability. Does he have the sense of humor that usually I look for? No, but it’s actually a good thing because he has a lot of these other more serious.
Rachel Burch [00:07:22]:
He’s so respectful. Anytime.
Heather [00:07:25]:
He really is.
Rachel Burch [00:07:26]:
He is. He’s like, we have to clean up. If there’s got to clean this up, leave it better than we found it. I’m like, yeah, I respect that.
Speaker C [00:07:35]:
I love that too.
Heather [00:07:37]:
So I guess what surprised you the most about kind of being open to guys in their twenty s and just like seeing how it goes.
Rachel Burch [00:07:45]:
I mean, what surprised me the most is how much they show up for the dating piece.
Heather [00:07:50]:
My mom. It’s funny.
Rachel Burch [00:07:51]:
I told my mom about it. I’m like, mom, I have a 52 year old this week. She goes, that’s a good age. I’m like, no, cougar math, 25 and 27. And she’s like, oh, gosh, okay. But then when I asked me about the dates, I go, one planned wine tasting, one planned, like, a fancy dinner. One’s taking me to this new restaurant that just opened in Newport. And she’s like, oh, it’s not just all about the sex for them.
Speaker C [00:08:14]:
And I’m like, no, mom.
Rachel Burch [00:08:17]:
There’s another element to it. In fact, the men that I’ve gone out with recently in their, like, it’s all about the sex. So what I’m saying is age is not a determining factor for any of it. You know what I mean? It’s kind of like judging someone for something else. That’s almost as arbitrary, because I’ve seen across the board, like, religion or something, right? I’ve seen across the board how men in all different age groups can show up differently. And what really surprised me is how the majority of the 20 something year olds that were asking me out wanted to take me out to a nice dinner. They committed to the date. They made a reservation.
Rachel Burch [00:08:56]:
They told me what time it was and where we were going. They wanted to pick me up at my house. Meanwhile, I have this 56 year old. I think he was.
Speaker C [00:09:06]:
And he was like, pencil me in that, probably.
Rachel Burch [00:09:10]:
And then he messages the same day, and it’s like, oh, I can’t make it. And I was like, well, I didn’t plan on going anywhere with you because you gave me no details about anything.
Heather [00:09:18]:
Right.
Rachel Burch [00:09:20]:
What surprised me was how I think they’re less jaded than we are because they haven’t been in the dating pool for so long.
Heather [00:09:27]:
So they’re like, yes.
Rachel Burch [00:09:27]:
I mean, he brought me flowers on our second.
Heather [00:09:30]:
I know. I loved that.
Rachel Burch [00:09:32]:
Not grocery store flowers, but, like, from an actual flower shop.
Heather [00:09:37]:
I love that. And I think you’re right about them not being jaded. One of the things that’s coming to mind as I’m listening to you now that I actually haven’t really thought about when we’ve just talked personally is the attachment styles. So there is a kind of thing where when someone’s mid 20s, about half the people in the dating pool are secure attachment styles. And by the time someone’s in their 40s, like us, at least, like, 80% of the dudes are avoidantly attached, it really skews. So basically what happens is a lot of the people who have a secure attachment style do kind of partner up somewhat younger because they’re comfortable in relationships. They feel good. It’s not too hard for them to kind of be committed.
Heather [00:10:24]:
And so I wonder if you’re getting more of that, like just more people with secure attachment.
Rachel Burch [00:10:28]:
Yeah, I mean, it feels like it. And that’s the thing, it makes me feel secure because with other men, as you know, if I didn’t hear from them for a couple of days, and I’ve also grown, but still, it’s kind of like, oh my God, what is happening? Something terrible is happening. But like, with him a couple of days ago by, and I’m like, oh.
Speaker C [00:10:44]:
That’S just him right now.
Heather [00:10:47]:
You kind of know that and you know that. And also I was so impressed that he reached out to you about planning Valentine’s day.
Speaker C [00:10:55]:
Yeah, I don’t know if we want.
Heather [00:10:57]:
To tell people about that.
Speaker C [00:10:59]:
Okay.
Heather [00:11:00]:
Now they know. I won’t say anymore. You can share what you want to share about that one. But I was just so impressed that I’m like, wow, this young guy is.
Rachel Burch [00:11:09]:
Really thinking ahead before. Yes, because he was know he’s from the midwest and he was like, I can only imagine how out here things get booked up. And then he said, or do you want to spend it with your kids? It was kind of like he asks me about my kids and other guys, like hubba hubba. He is in his forty s. I mean, he doesn’t know their names, their ages, right? I don’t think he’s ever.
Heather [00:11:37]:
I’m so over Hubba hubba right now.
Rachel Burch [00:11:38]:
I know, me too.
Heather [00:11:41]:
He was hot though, I will give him that. And not a bad guy, just like low effort. And I think what we’re seeing with this young gun, I don’t know if he has a nickname yet, but I.
Rachel Burch [00:11:52]:
Use his real name.
Speaker C [00:11:53]:
Oh, you do?
Heather [00:11:54]:
Okay. Wow. Okay. That’s so cool. So what we’re seeing with Wes is like effort. Like actual effort. And it’s just so refreshing. And it’s nice as your friend to also just witness you experiencing that and being treated like the queen that you are and how you deserve to be treated.
Heather [00:12:12]:
So that’s what I want for all the people that I care about. So I guess, should I try dating younger guys?
Rachel Burch [00:12:20]:
I think you should. Honestly? Honestly, the only cons are, and I overcome them very quickly was I was worried that someone was going to mistake.
Speaker C [00:12:32]:
Me as his mother.
Rachel Burch [00:12:34]:
When we went to the first dinner, he was the first young guy I’d ever gone out with. When we went to dinner, the waitress came over, she gave us our menu. She talked to us like we were normal. I honestly was shocked. I don’t know, I was waiting for her to say something like, is this your son? Why are you young child out?
Speaker C [00:12:51]:
I don’t know.
Rachel Burch [00:12:51]:
I expected, but she just was like, can I take your drink order? And I could feel like I was like, she just thinks we’re normal. I mean, it’s not like I brought a blow up doll and was like, this is my date. Yes, could you serve us? But I fully expected, I don’t know, some kind of weird treatment. And it’s probably because, again, living here in Newport, whenever I go out to dinner with my dad, I am always very loudly saying, like, my dad would like some more bread. Or my.
Heather [00:13:26]:
Actual dad, not my sugar daddy.
Speaker C [00:13:28]:
Yeah, exactly.
Rachel Burch [00:13:28]:
I’m like, this man is my father. Right? It’s just so funny because, yeah, growing up somewhere here where people judge that kind of stuff, but having done so much personal development work, the first guy that I connected with, we didn’t end up going out.
Speaker C [00:13:42]:
Garrett.
Rachel Burch [00:13:43]:
Perhaps you remember Garrett. I said, I’m scared someone’s going to think of your mom. And he goes, well, why do you care what they think?
Speaker C [00:13:50]:
And I thought, yeah, you’re right.
Rachel Burch [00:13:52]:
Why do I care what they think? Who cares? In fact, I went out with this 27 year old, this handsome fireman, and I noticed a table of girls looking over at us. And I’m like, they could be looking at him. They could be looking at us. They could be wondering what we are. And I’m like, I don’t know them.
Heather [00:14:09]:
That seems kind of fun to me.
Rachel Burch [00:14:11]:
Yeah, I know.
Heather [00:14:12]:
Like the little slight taboo element there.
Speaker C [00:14:14]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:14:15]:
And I let them look.
Rachel Burch [00:14:17]:
I think that they like that, too. In fact, you told me, right, that this is, like, a trend. What I’ve noticed on Instagram. And I don’t know if it’s everywhere, but I keep getting everything you sent me at once, too, but I keep getting them in my algorithm. All these, like, 25, 26 year old men looking for single moms or, like, milks. And you said milks and gilphs. Milks and gilphs, right.
Heather [00:14:43]:
My friend Kate Balustre, who was also on the show, she posted to her Instagram account. So if people want to go find this, you can go find on her account. Kind of like the pornhub data for end of 2023. And what were the trends? Like, what searches were increased and what searches were decreased and basically everything about older women was 200% on the rise. Not like a small increase, like major increases. We’re so trending.
Rachel Burch [00:15:13]:
It’s our time for the longest time, and I think you probably said this to me, men do it all the time, so why can’t we? In fact, men are probably taking all those guys, women that are that their age. So now they’re like, well, fine, we’re going to just, we’re going know, go up and find the women neglecting. Because.
Heather [00:15:37]:
There was another article that I saw on Instagram, and I think it was by Wednesday. Martin, I’ll have to forward it to you and we’ll link to it in the show notes. But it was also about that. And it was kind of what you just know where it’s kind of like men in our age range are often going for younger women or they’re maybe not as into the personal growth work, just like generationally. Things have changed a lot, and women have always kind of been more into coaching and therapy and personal development. And I do think a lot of Gen Zers are really into that stuff.
Rachel Burch [00:16:08]:
Well, and so that’s what I’ll say to answer your original question about should you do this? I think take age out of it. Take age out of the equation. Like, I actually had to set as a deal breaker the low age to 25, which still felt low to me because the 21 year olds, I’m like, you have a baby face.
Heather [00:16:25]:
I know that’s kind of my issue.
Rachel Burch [00:16:27]:
But just set it at 25. Just set it at 25. Don’t let anyone below that because it’ll take you out of the game. You’ll be like, yeah, so just set it at 25. No one below 25 can message.
Speaker C [00:16:37]:
Right. But.
Rachel Burch [00:16:40]:
You have as much luck, and my experience is more luck with finding someone that’s suitable to meet your needs and really connect with you in that younger age group than we do in.
Speaker C [00:16:51]:
The older age group.
Rachel Burch [00:16:52]:
And I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the attachment style because the avoidant is like, I’ve had enough of that.
Heather [00:16:59]:
I’m so over it, too.
Rachel Burch [00:17:00]:
Will I end up with this man as my lifelong partner?
Speaker C [00:17:04]:
I doubt it.
Rachel Burch [00:17:05]:
I really, I’m leaving a tiny little opening of possibility just because I don’t like to be closed to any opportunity.
Heather [00:17:14]:
And also, do you have that sketch with you from the psychic person?
Rachel Burch [00:17:18]:
Yeah, but I don’t want to show his real picture.
Heather [00:17:21]:
Oh, that’s true.
Rachel Burch [00:17:21]:
That’s true.
Heather [00:17:22]:
But so I will say she showed me a picture of a sketch that, you know how they have those sketches that psychics do of like this is your future soulmate. This is what they’re going to look like. And she sent that to me along with Wes’s picture and I was like, holy shit. You’re saying you probably don’t think he’s your lifelong partner, but he looks a lot like the drama.
Rachel Burch [00:17:40]:
Recommending falling for in your lowest moment, like I did, buying an $8 sketch off like an Instagram ad.
Heather [00:17:47]:
I mean, same, but for $8 it was worth the test to me.
Rachel Burch [00:17:51]:
I mean, they are the same face.
Heather [00:17:55]:
It’s pretty weird, you guys. I was like, oh, wow.
Rachel Burch [00:17:57]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:17:58]:
Face shape, the hairline, it was like real.
Rachel Burch [00:18:01]:
And when I saw them like, this is my person. It did what it needed to do. I’m like, okay, I can wait for this guy. They’re not going to send you an ugly sketch. You’re going to want your kind of whatever that is.
Heather [00:18:13]:
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, maybe I’ll have to be a little bit more open because I get a million messages also from guys in their twenty s. And I’ve always just been like, anyone under thirty s? An automatic no, even for casual. And my thoughts are like, they’re going to be bad at sex. They’re not going to know what they’re doing. They’re going to have too much of a baby face and I’m just going to kind of be like, okay, you’re an idiot. You don’t know anything about life yet.
Rachel Burch [00:18:34]:
So none of those have been my experiences life.
Heather [00:18:37]:
They really haven’t. So it’s been challenging me in a good way to be like, Rachel’s really smart, she’s really wise. She’s not getting bored with them. She’s finding great qualities. Like how interesting.
Rachel Burch [00:18:48]:
Well, I think there probably are, because that whole congratulations things that the guy used to say, I think there is a segment of the population who probably look for a younger person as a validation that they still got it or something, which is ridiculous because it doesn’t mean anything. The age doesn’t make someone more valuable because they’re younger. I mean, honestly, in fact, if I had the option to have someone my age, that was, that would be what I pick. I’m not looking to be validated by a younger man. And so I think that is where some of the stigma or problems or whatever come up when you see that I’m just looking for someone that puts in the same amount of effort that I put in, that’s excited to be with me. That’s consistent that we have fun together. Sex that’s good is also a huge, you know, I mean, add in like Valentine’s day and driving from Los Angeles to.
Heather [00:19:49]:
High effort level.
Rachel Burch [00:19:50]:
I love know. Like I have not found that with anyone else in any age group.
Heather [00:19:59]:
And I think the other thing that’s different too is I talk a lot about bandwidth and how much bandwidth people have to date someone in their twenty s is pretty unencumbered. It’s like they don’t have an ex wife, usually they don’t have kids. There’s no kind of schedule to work around that way. Their money is their own. They probably don’t have aging parents that they need to take care of yet. Whereas I think people more in our age range do have a lot of other things on their plate and don’t maybe have the bandwidth to be driving an hour to see you or planning things so far ahead.
Rachel Burch [00:20:33]:
Well, and speaking of which, I offer to pay. He always insists on paying. This isn’t like a sugar mama situation. I had one guy, I think I told you that was like, will you be my queen and sugar mama? And I was like, wait a minute, you have sex with me and I have to pay you?
Heather [00:20:47]:
No.
Speaker C [00:20:51]:
Match.
Rachel Burch [00:20:52]:
It was just kind of like, no, that’s not what’s happening here. You know what I mean?
Heather [00:20:56]:
Yeah, I remember that conversation.
Rachel Burch [00:20:58]:
Yeah, I did take him out for his birthday and I have made him things and whatever.
Heather [00:21:04]:
True.
Rachel Burch [00:21:04]:
So I tried to reciprocate, but he still shows up and wants to provide in that way. And again, it’s just kind of his natural way. And so I would say, just don’t eliminate someone based on their age. You’re still going to eliminate 80% of.
Speaker C [00:21:19]:
The people that are true.
Rachel Burch [00:21:21]:
Twenty s, but true.
Speaker C [00:21:22]:
Okay, don’t handicap yourself because I don’t.
Rachel Burch [00:21:27]:
Know, that’s a good point.
Heather [00:21:28]:
It’s kind of like dating is hard enough without kind of putting these arbitrary criteria in place.
Rachel Burch [00:21:34]:
So I’m here to give you all permission to date so much younger. I mean, he is doing, I took my calculator out. Like, I literally took my calculator out. I was like, how much younger is this guy now? 21 years younger than. I mean, he legitimately could be my child that I had.
Speaker C [00:21:55]:
At an age.
Rachel Burch [00:21:56]:
That people have children. This is true.
Speaker C [00:21:59]:
Typically. And I looked at, I think I.
Rachel Burch [00:22:01]:
Figured out his birth year and I was like, okay, that was the year I graduated college and started law school.
Speaker C [00:22:06]:
Okay, great.
Heather [00:22:10]:
I like how you’re unfazed by it.
Rachel Burch [00:22:12]:
Yeah, whatever.
Speaker C [00:22:13]:
And I kind of want to say.
Heather [00:22:14]:
My favorite thing about cougaring. I just like that it’s a little more counterculture because I do think there’s so much emphasis placed on us as women to just be youthful and glowing and beautiful and invest in all these treatments that keep us looking, like, young. And so I love it just that it’s a little counterculture. It’s a little bit like, hey, I love that these young guys are like, I love that older women know what they want. I love that older women are kind of, like, maybe less drama and more direct, or I love that some of the ways you’ve described things, it makes me think, like, I wonder if they’re really stepping up their game to be with you, and they kind of like that challenge.
Rachel Burch [00:22:55]:
You know what it made me think the other day? Because as somebody that has watched every instagram reel about how to show up for enticing a man and being in a relationship and high value woman and blah, blah, blah, it’s like you almost have this assumption that you’re, you know what mean?
Heather [00:23:11]:
Like, almost.
Rachel Burch [00:23:12]:
Some of that work is already done for you. You don’t have to like, and you shouldn’t have to do that work anyway. But don’t never text them. Don’t start this. There’s all this stuff, and I feel like they are stepping up their game because we’re a little more of this kind of unique opportunity or kind of a special. I don’t know. I think there is an incentive to show up in a better way, especially if you, I don’t know, have other things going for you in your life where you are a good package of someone to date.
Heather [00:23:55]:
Yeah, I think that’s a good point. And I think it is. Even though maybe the point is not validating, it is also kind of validating that this younger guy could get women of any age, and he’s consciously choosing to prioritize wisdom, sophistication, knowing what you want, and make more effort to be with an older woman. And so I think that’s really cool. And the other thing I think I’ve heard about younger guys dating older women is kind of like what you like. It’s just for sex. But seeing how Wes, especially is showing up with you, it’s very clearly not just for sex for him.
Speaker C [00:24:39]:
Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:24:41]:
Which is weird.
Heather [00:24:42]:
I don’t blame him.
Rachel Burch [00:24:44]:
Well, it’s almost like the antidote to current dating culture to have somebody show up, go like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I do deserve to actually get flowers sometimes. Not every date. Not every guy, not every whatever. But like, oh yeah, maybe you do want to drive to see me. Maybe I am worth taking out to dinner or making Valentine’s Day reservations for.
Heather [00:25:09]:
I know. And I mean, you and I are both so into manifesting and law of attraction. Just you having those types of thoughts is so magnetic.
Rachel Burch [00:25:19]:
Yeah, well, what I was thinking was in my mind, I’ve gone from a place of crazy attachment to men that I’ve dated. That’s what started my podcast was just like this very intense attachment to a place. I have no attachment to continuing the future with Wes. And I thought, God, if I can now have this in my nervous system when I come across someone in their forty s or fifty s, if I could just show up to a new suitor and just kind of not have that attachment or expectation of a future, it’s so much more likely to result in a future or 100% not to be annihilated when he ghosts or we break up or whatever happens.
Speaker C [00:26:10]:
And I just thought like, it’s so.
Rachel Burch [00:26:14]:
Crazy that his age makes me able to not attach, even though he’s showing up as the ideal partner that I would want. With all the ways that he’s showing up, the only thing that keeps me from attaching is that it’s fascinating.
Heather [00:26:30]:
It’s fascinating how our brains work and how the stories we create about ourselves and about the other person and about what the future will or won’t hold. Because everything happens in the present moment. So all that stuff just creates our point of attraction in the present moment. So if it’s like we’re in our heads and we’re like, oh, I don’t know, am I going to hear from him? And I really hope so. And I really hope he’s going to want to see me. It’s like that creates one point of attraction. And then if it’s like, ooh, I’m so special and I love being treated this way, and yes, I do deserve this, it’s like that creates a very different point of attraction.
Speaker C [00:27:07]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:27:08]:
So I guess I just want to emphasize that because I want people to internalize that it’s our thoughts, and certain people catalyze different thoughts. But like you’re saying, once we realize, oh, these thoughts feel so much better, then we can practice those.
Speaker C [00:27:27]:
Exactly.
Rachel Burch [00:27:27]:
And that’s why I feel like dating outside your typical type or ideal or idea, whatever that is, whether it’s this age or whether it’s height. I mean, about height, there’s like such a thing now.
Heather [00:27:43]:
Such a thing.
Rachel Burch [00:27:46]:
I’m five two.
Heather [00:27:47]:
He’s a tall, hot young man. Can’t go wrong.
Speaker C [00:27:50]:
But I’m five two.
Rachel Burch [00:27:52]:
So I’ve considered. I’ve been open to. I’ve matched men that are out of other people’s kind of spectrum of what they’re interested in.
Speaker C [00:28:02]:
Right.
Heather [00:28:03]:
Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:28:03]:
Even saying five seven is five inches taller than me.
Speaker C [00:28:07]:
That’s true.
Rachel Burch [00:28:08]:
And so I did have one guy that was the same height, and I just had a little bit of, like, a pause. I just wasn’t sure if I would have that attraction. So I’m not trying to say I’m like a height saint or anything like that.
Heather [00:28:20]:
Right.
Rachel Burch [00:28:21]:
My point is, when we date someone that’s outside of the realm of what we see ourselves with in the future, it gives us this freedom and this experience where we can then copy and paste it into other experiences where we get to show up in that more magnetic, attractive energy.
Heather [00:28:41]:
Maybe it’s interesting what you’re saying, because obviously I’m going to podfest this week. And last year I had a little fling at Podfest. And there is something I love so much about vacation Heather, as I will call her.
Rachel Burch [00:28:56]:
Okay.
Heather [00:28:57]:
And it sounds just like what you’re describing with just kind of like, dating outside your usual type. And it must have to do with letting go of expectations, not expecting anything long term right off the bat. Lowering the stakes.
Speaker C [00:29:10]:
Yes.
Rachel Burch [00:29:10]:
And you know what’s funny? You’ve told me about vacation Heather, and I’m always in awe because I’m like, how do you not go? Like, well, let’s have a long distance relationship. I’ll fly there. You’ll fly. My first guy was a long distance.
Speaker C [00:29:21]:
Relationship, so I think it maybe warrants.
Rachel Burch [00:29:25]:
Experimenting because I could not have that mindset as vacation Heather. I would be like me Rachel, but with the age, that definitely gave me.
Speaker C [00:29:35]:
The space to be like, well, I’m.
Rachel Burch [00:29:38]:
Vacation Heather right now.
Heather [00:29:41]:
You’re cougar Rachel.
Rachel Burch [00:29:42]:
Cougar Rachel? Yes. I don’t know after dating Wes that I would necessarily make men in their 20s, like, a common thing. I wouldn’t add it to rotation. I’m not saying it’s like a check the box. My whole podcast is about a bucket list. But I’m not saying that’s like a check mark, but it’s just so many things matched up that it was like, okay, I’ll try this. And I think the big thing for me was giving myself permission. So I guess the question would be like, what else can I give myself permission to do? Maybe.
Heather [00:30:24]:
I love that question. What will she do next, folks?
Rachel Burch [00:30:29]:
I don’t know. I was hoping maybe you could help me figure that out.
Heather [00:30:34]:
I mean, I’m kind of just excited for you to see where it goes with Wes. I know that you paid $8 for the psychic drawing.
Rachel Burch [00:30:42]:
Really excited about the psychic.
Heather [00:30:43]:
I’m so excited about the psychic drawing because I just love psychic things in general. But I like just the idea of openness, of, like, let’s just see what happens and how things evolve. And I think that’s how I aspire to live my dating life. And noticing what makes me kind of contract and go in my little turtle shell or withdraw from dating. And what makes me feel more expansive and open, I don’t know.
Rachel Burch [00:31:18]:
And I’m still on the apps and I’m still chatting with.
Heather [00:31:21]:
That’s true.
Rachel Burch [00:31:22]:
And I recently went out with.
Speaker C [00:31:28]:
The.
Rachel Burch [00:31:29]:
Axe throwing guy, who also, he was 27 and he was a pilot, and I wouldn’t say a good match. I mean, he was more, again, also more in that immature thing. But what I loved about him was we went wine tasting, and he immediately asked me out for the next time. And then.
Speaker C [00:31:51]:
That’s true.
Rachel Burch [00:31:51]:
Wanted to do an experiment or an experience, and we went and went axe throwing, and he was like, can we go hiking? I just love how intentional they are with. And so definitely trying it on. It’s kind of like the three bite rule that they have. When you’re like a mom for, like a baby, like, take three bites. If they don’t like it, it’s like a new food.
Heather [00:32:17]:
And so I feel like I have.
Rachel Burch [00:32:18]:
320 something year old.
Heather [00:32:21]:
I love this idea. Rachel, everyone listening should try this. Unless you’re monogamous, partnered. Everyone else go try three dates with someone who’s not your type.
Speaker C [00:32:34]:
Yeah, that’s a good idea.
Heather [00:32:37]:
Like, what an adventure. I also just love the idea of experiments like that. I do that with my clients a lot in coaching of, like, let’s just try this as an experiment. We’re not committing to anything, but let’s give it a week or let’s try it a few times. And I think that approach just creates so much more openness.
Rachel Burch [00:32:53]:
Yeah, well, so there’s three dates.
Speaker C [00:32:55]:
But then I also tried three different people.
Rachel Burch [00:32:59]:
What’s the opposite of cougar cub?
Speaker C [00:33:01]:
Do they have?
Heather [00:33:02]:
Oh, I don’t know. Is it cub?
Rachel Burch [00:33:04]:
I know that men cougars are manthers because I recently.
Heather [00:33:07]:
One moment while I google this.
Rachel Burch [00:33:09]:
Yeah. Look up what that is.
Heather [00:33:14]:
What are the younger men called who date older women? I think it is.
Speaker C [00:33:20]:
Yes.
Heather [00:33:20]:
Most people will say cubs.
Speaker C [00:33:23]:
Yes.
Heather [00:33:23]:
Okay, we’ll go with cubs. But, I mean, that just makes them sound like babies. I don’t like it either. We’ll just say younger men.
Rachel Burch [00:33:30]:
Younger men. Okay.
Speaker C [00:33:31]:
Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:33:31]:
So I dated three younger men, and I’ve been chatting with some others. And so, again, they don’t all show up. It’s not like they’re all the same. But there’s some that ghost. There’s some that just unmatch. There’s some that expire. But again, I am surprised at how the majority of them really show up and just kind of see you as something special.
Speaker C [00:33:59]:
I know.
Heather [00:34:00]:
I love that. I think I just want everyone to feel special in their love life and their sex life and just with themselves.
Rachel Burch [00:34:08]:
Well, and I feel like he’s something special, too. It’s not this, like, one that’s true. Kind of where you’re worshipping the other person or anything.
Heather [00:34:20]:
It’s not like a power imbalance.
Rachel Burch [00:34:21]:
Yeah, no, I feel lucky to get to spend time.
Heather [00:34:25]:
I love that. That’s so beautiful. Well, I feel inspired to try something out of my comfort zone. And I probably, on average, date people a little bit younger than me. Probably skew slightly younger, but still pretty close to my age. So I’m almost thinking, why don’t I try dating a little bit older and a little bit younger than my usual? Try both.
Speaker C [00:34:49]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:34:49]:
Let’s see what happens.
Speaker C [00:34:51]:
I’ve tried that.
Rachel Burch [00:34:51]:
I mean, I’ve connected with men in their 60s.
Heather [00:34:55]:
Really?
Rachel Burch [00:34:55]:
Yes. But they don’t ask for the date. They don’t follow through.
Speaker C [00:35:03]:
And I don’t know if it’s just.
Rachel Burch [00:35:05]:
The particular ones that I’m connecting with or what, but it’s just kind of the conversations die, and I’m always shocked.
Heather [00:35:18]:
This is reminding me of a few different things. I think what we’re saying about it sounds like there’s almost a tendency to get more jaded with age or to have a harder time fully letting your guard down and being open and vulnerable with someone. Does that feel true?
Rachel Burch [00:35:37]:
Yes. And also how it feels to me. And again, maybe it’s just being in Newport beach is that being on a dating app is like a kid in a candy store for someone. Well, for everyone, but maybe.
Speaker C [00:35:53]:
After you’ve.
Rachel Burch [00:35:54]:
Been in a long term relationship, which I’m assuming some of these older men have now, they’re just excited at all the dopamine hits of the matches. And look at this one. Look at that one. It’s that whole, like, someone told me this on a first date, and then I never saw him again. So it was fitting. He told me how great I was and how he definitely wanted to see me again.
Heather [00:36:12]:
Oh, wow, 40s.
Speaker C [00:36:14]:
Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:36:14]:
I kissed me, like super passionately. We planned our next date and then ghosted. I even texted, like, hey, maybe things changed for you and never heard back. But he said, no matter how comfortable.
Speaker C [00:36:27]:
The shoe, the dating world is, let.
Rachel Burch [00:36:30]:
Me try that one on. Let me just try that one on. No matter how comfortable the shoe.
Heather [00:36:36]:
Yeah.
Speaker C [00:36:37]:
I feel like maybe with the younger guys, maybe they’re a little more satisfied.
Rachel Burch [00:36:42]:
With a really comfortable shoe and just want to wear it around for a little bit because they’re new to having shoes. This is a weird analogy.
Heather [00:36:53]:
Yes, they’re new to having shoes. It’s interesting, though, because it’s also got me thinking about when I was a high school counselor and I did feel like my teenage students attached to me in a different way than my adult clients do. Now. It is, to me, it feels like there is something there. There is something, on average, true. Doesn’t mean it’s true for every person, but on average, there seems to be a trend there. I noticed it myself. Sometimes.
Heather [00:37:22]:
I think once we go through that first heartbreak, which I feel like the first heartbreak is just always the most devastating, and you’re just like, whoa, I didn’t even know I could have my world rocked that much.
Speaker C [00:37:35]:
I do think it gets a little.
Heather [00:37:37]:
Bit harder to fully open up and feel secure and let go and trust people. I guess I want people listening to be like, if you want to have an amazing love life and if you want to have real intimacy and passion.
Speaker C [00:37:53]:
In your sex life, can you work.
Heather [00:37:57]:
On your defense mechanisms? I would call them parts. Can you work with your parts and befriend them and kind of take care of them from the inside so that you can be more open hearted?
Speaker C [00:38:09]:
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true.
Rachel Burch [00:38:11]:
Because also there’s so much when we judge others, it’s because we judge ourselves even more than we judge others. And so if I was looking at people going, I mean, I recently, I talked about this in the podcast, went down to the Ritz Carlton and I saw a woman in her like nineties and this guy in his thirty s and they made out, right? Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And I thought he was just talking to like a lonely old lady. I was checking him out and then I was like, oh my God. And then he left. He was wearing a wedding ring.
Speaker C [00:38:43]:
This is fascinating. Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:38:45]:
Was married, maybe in an open marriage, I don’t know.
Speaker C [00:38:47]:
Okay.
Rachel Burch [00:38:48]:
But he was on vacation, potentially and then the security came and brought her wheelchair and wheeled her out. But the woman’s giddiness after kissing a.
Heather [00:38:58]:
Stranger in a bar, she was so cute.
Rachel Burch [00:39:00]:
She was, like, so happy. But I was just watching, like, is this elder abuse? What is happening? He did pay for his own drinks, so there wasn’t any money changing hands. I watched the whole thing, but I was judging, right? Or maybe judge is not the right word. I think I was discerning. I was trying to figure out what was happening. I was observing and making assumptions.
Speaker C [00:39:25]:
And so since I do that, I.
Rachel Burch [00:39:29]:
Expect that when I go out, there.
Speaker C [00:39:30]:
Are people doing that right to me.
Rachel Burch [00:39:33]:
And so I think that having done the personal development work and even that 27 year old guy, the first one, just being like, who cares what people think? I was like, yeah, you’re right.
Speaker C [00:39:42]:
I did.
Rachel Burch [00:39:44]:
On a date with Wes, I noticed some people may be looking at us, but he’s a good looking guy. Maybe they’re looking at him. I don’t know what people are looking at or thinking or whatever. We always expect that people are thinking what we’re thinking, but rarely they are. So I think working on our defense mechanisms, working on our personal judgments, and just trying to remain open. It’s so easy to close down. I was closed down for so many years. I just didn’t want to get hurt.
Rachel Burch [00:40:15]:
And I was hurting myself by being closed down because I was so, gosh.
Heather [00:40:20]:
This is an important topic. Can you say more about that? Because I know I went through a phase like that in college where I just really didn’t feel good in my body, really didn’t feel attractive. And looking back, I realized it’s not that people weren’t into me. It’s that I prevented it without realizing. It’s like I took myself out of the game. I assumed nobody was flirting with me. I thought, like, oh, this person could never be attracted to me. And so then that was the result I created.
Rachel Burch [00:40:51]:
Yes. When I look at pictures of myself a couple of years ago, it’s like I don’t even recognize that person.
Speaker C [00:41:02]:
How do I say this?
Rachel Burch [00:41:05]:
That version of me would not have all the 20 something year old men wanting to go out with her, not because she wasn’t worthy and funny and smart and successful and all these things.
Speaker C [00:41:19]:
But I literally had created a physical.
Rachel Burch [00:41:25]:
Version of myself that.
Speaker C [00:41:29]:
Would keep me.
Rachel Burch [00:41:30]:
Safe, because then I could just go, see, nobody’s interested in me because I’m heavy and I am ugly.
Speaker C [00:41:38]:
I very much felt ugly.
Rachel Burch [00:41:40]:
For a really long time. I would tell myself that I couldn’t see, I would pick out the little parts of my face that I didn’t like, which I’ve had to tell friends, if you look at any famous celebrity that you think is attractive and you actually zoom in on their face, sure, you could pick something out, but nobody does that. Beauty is like a whole picture. It’s the energy, it’s their confidence.
Heather [00:42:06]:
I love that. That’s so accurate to me.
Rachel Burch [00:42:09]:
And so when we look in the mirror and go, well, this is ugly, or this is bad, or look at.
Speaker C [00:42:13]:
This, nobody does that except for us.
Rachel Burch [00:42:16]:
And so I had to stop doing that, and I had to really kind of let down my defenses and go, we are going to be okay. If we get hurt, I am still here. For me. If somebody self energy, if somebody there, yeah. It’s not about, and I say this all the time, it’s not about the other person. It’s never about the other person. If I never hear from Wes again, I’m going to be okay. But there are many men where I’m like, I need to hear from this person or I’m not going to be able to pay.
Rachel Burch [00:42:46]:
And so working through that and then letting down the defense mechanisms, getting on the apps, I hear a lot of people like, the apps aren’t for me. The apps are not for me either. I hate the apps. I don’t want to.
Heather [00:43:00]:
I mean, the apps are for no one.
Rachel Burch [00:43:01]:
But I delete them every chance I get. I’m like, f you. I got so mad. And then I’m like, okay, let’s just try. I’m lonely. I don’t want to be lonely anymore. People aren’t out there. People go, oh, I want to meet them in person.
Speaker C [00:43:15]:
I want to go to a bar.
Rachel Burch [00:43:16]:
Okay, well, good luck handcuffing yourself. If you really want love, just be open and be open. The gift of connection, it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
Heather [00:43:28]:
It is not.
Rachel Burch [00:43:29]:
But also, closing your heart and being lonely is not easy either. In fact, that whole, like, choose your heart. I would rather choose connecting with new people and the possibility of finding love than shutting down and not giving myself the chance to find love.
Heather [00:43:45]:
Yeah. And I hear you, and I feel like my phrase or intention for the year is higher love. Last year was trust. This year is higher love. And that’s part of my intention, too. And I notice that there’s parts of me that want to shut down, that sometimes shut down. And it can be a practice. And so if you’re listening and you’re like, I kind of have given up, or I kind of have shut down or just, I act detached, or I’m the one to always leave first.
Heather [00:44:16]:
Or whatever your patterns are, to at least question them and also question them in a loving way, like, befriend those parts. They’re trying to protect you, but they’re also not going to get you to actually feeling known and loved and appreciated.
Speaker C [00:44:37]:
For exactly who you are. Exactly. Yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:44:40]:
It’s not easy work, but listening to ask a session can get you closer.
Heather [00:44:48]:
Thank you, Rachel. That was a great.
Rachel Burch [00:44:51]:
My word for the year is seduction.
Heather [00:44:53]:
Because say more about that.
Speaker C [00:44:56]:
Know, like, getting your desires met, getting.
Rachel Burch [00:45:01]:
Manifesting things, getting the things that you want through the power of really being yourself is how I’m kind of looking at it. It’s not like a manipulative kind of seduction. It’s more of like, even with things that I would sell in my business, it’s like, how can I entice. I like the word entice, too. How can I entice somebody to be more curious about what I’m selling instead of how can I shove it down their throat? You know what I mean? How can I entice someone?
Heather [00:45:34]:
That’s what he said.
Rachel Burch [00:45:36]:
That’s what he did.
Heather [00:45:40]:
He’s getting spicy up in here.
Rachel Burch [00:45:42]:
Well, that’s what I’m saying. I think I’m so well suited for younger men because I have the sense of humor.
Heather [00:45:47]:
That’s true. You are very playful.
Rachel Burch [00:45:49]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:45:49]:
I love that about you.
Speaker C [00:45:51]:
Thank you. But, yeah.
Rachel Burch [00:45:53]:
So, seduction is my word, and I feel like, yeah, what if we seduce ourselves? Get yourself to do. Go to the gym or whatever it is you don’t want to do. Get on the dating apps, like seduce yourself. How can I entice you to do that? Such a more sensual and pleasurable way.
Speaker C [00:46:12]:
To go about life.
Heather [00:46:14]:
That’s true. I like that. Like how generally, the word seduction can be used to a variety of different areas of life.
Speaker C [00:46:21]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:46:22]:
Cool. So if people want to know more about you, where might they find you, Miss Rachel?
Rachel Burch [00:46:29]:
Well, if you’re a podcast listener, which.
Speaker C [00:46:30]:
You are, because here you are.
Rachel Burch [00:46:32]:
Love before 100 is my podcast.
Speaker C [00:46:35]:
It is.
Heather [00:46:35]:
That’s right.
Rachel Burch [00:46:36]:
Just my gift to people that are feeling lonely on the dating journey or instagram. Rachel Birch is a good place to find me.
Heather [00:46:48]:
We will link to both of these and whatever platform you’re listening on. You could find love before 100 there.
Speaker C [00:46:54]:
That is true.
Rachel Burch [00:46:55]:
Those are the best ways.
Heather [00:46:57]:
Rachel’s podcast is so good, you guys. And she actually won a signal award, too. I didn’t even mention that. In her intro because I forgot for a second, but now I’m remembering, and it was the best gateway podcast.
Speaker C [00:47:10]:
Thank you.
Heather [00:47:11]:
And I think, yeah, that was like the only award they gave out in that category for all the thousands of podcasts.
Speaker C [00:47:17]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:47:18]:
So, anyways, you got to go check out her podcast. It’s literally part of why we’re friends, actually.
Speaker C [00:47:26]:
Thank you. Yeah, it’s crazy.
Rachel Burch [00:47:29]:
Podcasting just has opened the door to many gifts. But you are definitely, in fact, you posted on Instagram, and I almost posted, but I didn’t, that we’ve been talking about the costs of podcasting.
Heather [00:47:42]:
That’s true.
Rachel Burch [00:47:43]:
And I was going to say, you are worth all the money that I spent on my podcast.
Speaker C [00:47:49]:
Our friendship. Yeah.
Heather [00:47:51]:
Rachel make me cry. That’s so.
Speaker C [00:47:56]:
Thank you.
Heather [00:47:58]:
I know. I feel it’s like. It’s kind of wild. So, we’ve known each other less than a year, but I did have this feeling about Rachel, you guys. When I first just came across her, I was like, we have a lot of weird. Like, I just felt, like, energetically and just a few things you said. I was like. And then we joke now that we’re the same person, obviously we’re different people, but we’re not that codependent.
Speaker C [00:48:22]:
Okay.
Heather [00:48:24]:
But there’s a lot of commonalities. So it’s just been really cool. It has been really cool. So thank you for being my friend, and thank you for being my mastermind buddy, and thank you for just sharing your journey. I guess I also wanted to say it’s just so brave. I share some personal tidbits here and there, but to have a whole podcast where you’re just really opening up about your love life, it’s dedication that I see you put into it, but it’s a lot of vulnerability, and I think that’s what’s going to make you an amazing partner for someone one day.
Rachel Burch [00:49:00]:
I appreciate that.
Speaker C [00:49:01]:
Yeah.
Heather [00:49:02]:
So go learn from Rachel on how to be vulnerable and open your hearts.
Rachel Burch [00:49:06]:
All right.
Heather [00:49:07]:
Bye, everybody. Thank you for listening, and thank you for joining me, Rachel.
Speaker C [00:49:11]:
My pleasure.
Heather [00:49:15]:
Thank you for listening to the Ask a sex therapist podcast. Got a question about spicing things up in the bedroom? Find the answers you’re looking for in my dirty talk guide, a free resource for my podcast listeners. Grab yours now at slash dirty talk. Again, that’s o dirtytalks. And be sure to tell your partner or friends, because everyone has something they would like to ask a sex therapist close.
