Hey everybody. Welcome back to another very fun and interesting episode, uh, that we have today of Ask a Sex Therapist. I am joined by two guests today. Um, so Alex Hanno is a Los Angeles based writer slash director whose credits include the upcoming apocalyptic thriller, A Social Contract. Starring Sean Astin and the horror satire, Detox, which is screened at the likes of Seattle International Film Festival, Newport Beach Film Festival, and Tallgrass Film Festival.

Caitlin Morris is an actor slash producer from St. Petersburg, Florida. Woo hoo! Um, she has worked extensively in the off Broadway theater scene, starring in the long running hit, Drunk Shakespeare, and has collaborated with companies such as The Public, Playwrights Horizons, The Bushwick Star, New Georges, and Ars Nova.

She has also created, produced, and acted in an array of indie film projects and is a lifetime member of the Actors Studio. So welcome Alex and Caitlin. Thank you guys so much for being here.

for having us, Heather. Jinx. Wow, are we married or what? No, just get used to it. Ugh,

married.

Yeah.

Um, which, you know, we’re going to talk about marriage today and you guys are married. And I’ll just mention to people how I basically accosted you at the local film festival here in

how I remember it.

Uh, that’s what you remembered as well. Um, yeah, it’s like Korea, a gorilla podcast, uh, recruiting, um, But yeah, so I had been there with a friend just like, you know, it’s the sunscreen film festival.

We had signed up to watch a group of shorts and yours was one of them and it’s called every seven. So we’ll, we’ll link to it for people listening. If you want to go watch the film, which you totally should. Um, but tell us a little bit about this project. Like how did it even develop? Like how’d you guys come up with this?

So, this was, I would say, kind of the, the, the, Not even height of COVID necessarily, but that moment during the COVID era where we were all just tired of it, you know, we were really, we were over it. I think it was like early 2022. And, um, and then Caitlin, myself, we were itching to, to get back into production because it’s just been paused for so long.

And so. We said, let’s go make another short film. Um, we’ve collaborated on a number of things and we’re very fortunate that as artists, we are able to collaborate in addition being partners. Um, and, and so we, uh, another collaborator of ours, friend of ours named Michael Stagliano was kind of at a similar spot and was itching to make something.

And so three of us said, let’s, let’s throw some spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. And, um, and we had a meeting or two. We. Kind of watch some other shorts that to some degree, like served as a launching point for us and inspiration, excuse me. And, and very quickly, I feel like we hit on a shared theme that all of us were interested in.

And that ended up being marriage and relationships. Um, and I think at the time, uh, you know, Caitlin and I, we would have been pretty newly married. I think it would only really have been a year. Um, Michael would have been, hitting that that seven year mark, that seven year itch as it were. Um, and, uh, and there were, you know, instances in his family life that I think, um, served as inspiration as well as there are.

And, you know, pretty much anybody who’s reached 30 something, you’re starting to see divorce, right? You’re starting to see your friends get divorced. And so it was interesting coming at this because Caitlin and I obviously, you know, now we’re three and a half years married and very happy. Um, and Michael has been now he’s, you know, what, eight, I think he’s at 10 actually.

I’m very happy. And yet we have so many friends that are in, um, situations where they’re not or where they’re, they’re now in their second marriage. So I think, uh, we were really curious to dig into that and to, to look at from a narrative perspective, um, you know, why that is and more specifically, like peeling it back further.

Um, I grew up a Catholic, so there’s, you know, plenty that we could talk about there. Uh, but, you know, looking at like, yeah, right. Yeah. Um, but why the institution of marriage? Is the way that it is or structured the way that it is right. And the fact that it pretty much hasn’t changed changed at all since, you know, since it started.

Um, and so we can dig in a little bit more to that. But, uh, but that was kind of the genesis of the idea. And then once we landed on this, okay, we want to tell a story about marriage and not even really like critique it necessarily, but. But just ask some questions. That’s where we kind of were off to the races with

that’s what I loved about the film is just this idea of questioning. And that’s such a big theme of this podcast is like, we’re handed so many, like what I call social scripts of like, this is what you’re supposed to do. You know? And they talk about like the relationship escalator. It’s like you meet and you date and you get engaged and you get married and you move in together and then you like have kids and you should have a white picket fence and the verbs with the dog, you know, it’s like, there’s this like, prescribes, you know, idea of what you’re supposed to do.

And I really think that that might work great for a lot of people, but I think the questioning is so important. And part of what excites me is that, you know, people are starting to question it and people are starting to do marriage differently. Um, part of what I’ve loved about your film too, is like, it’s a, it’s a thought that I have had as well about like, what if.

Marriage was like not forever. So how did you guys come up with that idea to explore sort of, uh, like a time limited marriage?

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think to Alex’s point, this, this notion of a seven year itch is like in the collective conscious, like we’re aware of what that is and what

is. Yeah.

And we were kind of like, well, what would it, what would it mean if, if, uh, if, you know, if the world looked at that seven year mark as an opportunity, rather than like a.

Uh, roadblock and went, okay, if this is generally the time in a relationship with couples kind of start questioning or having some serious trouble, um, what if that’s also the opportunity for you to reassess in real time? Like, is this something that I want to re enlist for another 7 years on or something that I want to walk away from and I think a lot of.

That, uh, there’s just, the stakes are so high, right? Like, anytime you’re having, if you’re married, um, or you’re in a long term relationship, and you’re having a conversation about that relationship, I mean, you, you’ve built a life together. The stakes are, are monumental. And when you, you know, if you were to decide to end that, there’s so much red tape that you’re cutting through.

Um, and so I, I don’t think, The to back up the premise of the film is that it’s set in an alternate universe where every seven years Couples basically go to a government mandated office to decide to either re up their marriage for another seven years or just dissolve it Um, and it’s clean and it’s easy and it’s normalized and we’re not suggesting necessarily that that’s the best format for marriage but um, but

think it’s an interesting one, though, for

Yeah.

Um, but you know, just asking that question of, is there a better way, right? Is there a better way to, to do this? And like you said, standard marriage may work well for a lot of people. Then again, more than 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. So maybe not, you know? Well, and I love what you said too, Heather, just about like the notion of these social scripts that we just kind of follow or fall into.

Um, you know, so much of that is just ingrained in us from such an early age. You know, I think like I, let’s get personal. Why not? I was, um, I was certainly one of those people who like really questioned whether the institution of marriage was even something I was interested in. Um, you know, I was really kind of, um, a little disillusioned by the whole thing, which is strange.

Cause my parents have been married for like 48 years or something and, you know, very happily, you know, I have this great example of marriage, so it’s not a reflection on that. It’s more of a question of like. Why don’t we question, like, let’s just take a minute and go, is that actually the thing that I want or the thing that’s best for us?

And, you know, if so, great, let’s do it. If not, like maybe let’s consider a different version, but, um, Alex won me over. So, yeah, well, you know, two and a half years long distance. We’ll do that. Yeah. Put the work in.

Oh, wow, that’s tough, too. Yeah. Um, yeah, that’s, I mean, What were you saying, Caitlin?

Uh, just that it kind of strengthened things for us. You know, I think that the challenge of distance, like, um, in some ways, like really kind of unlocked, uh, I mean, first of all, it really forced us to communicate like extremely effectively because that’s all we had, um, Yeah, and so it was kind of like, we built this incredibly strong foundation as a result of the distance.

I don’t think I don’t think in spite of, I think, really, in some ways, because of that, um, Yeah.

Interesting. I’ve heard that, I’ve heard that before, and I think it definitely can go either way. Um, that’s awesome that for you guys it wound up being. Something that created a strength for you. Um, can you, can you tell us just since we’re getting into a little bit, like, so how did you guys meet?

I mean, Heather, you’re going to love this. We met almost the exact same way you and I met Heather. Uh, we met at a film festival, um, in the very romantic, yeah, the very romantic Manchester, Vermont. Um, not to be confused with Manchester, New Hampshire. Um, and yeah, it was fall in Vermont. So need I say more? I mean, it was, It was all, it did all the heavy lifting.

Um, yeah. And, uh, so, so we both had projects there and, um, I, so I saw Caitlin on screen in, uh, the project that she had, it was a web series called sublets. I saw her on screen before I met her in real life. And. Uh, there’s a debate about when we actually met in real life. Um, but, uh, but yeah, but when we did meet, it was one of those moments where it was like, I saw, I know you because I just saw you.

Um, and, and similarly, uh, Caitlin got to see my project as well. And so there was this, this, uh, sort of baseline of, okay, this person’s talented. We know that they

Mm hmm.

you know, and create a quality entertainment to sort of reach a

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Um, and I think a lot of, for me, at least a lot of the, um, I don’t know, the, the walls that are up, you know, usually when you’re meeting new people, uh, that you may be interested in those just dissolve because immediately we’re able to talk about, um, talk about film and

That’s so cool.

Yeah. Um, so that was how we initially met, but I was on the West coast at the time and she was in New York. So

Oh. So then, like, how do you keep in touch after that first little meeting? Because that’s not like a ton to go on initially.

it’s really not. Uh, I mean, I think it’s a great example too, of like the, I mean, it’s, it’s like, It’s such a hackneyed adage at this point, the whole, like, when you know, you know thing, but it really was like, That feeling of just like, we need to continue talking. And so we just like started talking on the phone a lot.

And mind you, the festival was like four days long. So we were basically ended up hanging out for the entirety of that, that festival. Um, and it was a very small town. So, you know, there’s one bar that everyone is gathering at in the evening. So it was, it was, uh, sort of a shared community there, but yeah, it was, yeah, I think we, we left that festival. Not really having plans to continue talking, but very quickly after we, we were, yeah, a lot of phone calls, a lot of, I don’t think zoom was really. We FaceTimed a lot. Yeah, we’ve been FaceTiming. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. That’s cool.

even think of anything pre Zoom. Yeah.

Yeah. Skype. It used to be Skype.

Wow.

Yeah.

Those were the

but okay. I love that for you guys. Um, and then I also kind of wanted to go backwards into the history of marriage. Like you kind of mentioned the institution hasn’t changed that much. So I’m assuming you did some research or whatever for the film.

So like, what did you find about like how it started and how

I mean, I, I think like, I think for me, there’s a lot of like, um, as a feminist, um, a lot of questions about, um, like the ownership structure of marriage or like why. Like, you know, the origins of marriage are very much rooted in, like, I want to add your lands to my lands, and like, your

Yeah, it’s like a business deal.

yeah, this like social strata that I would like to achieve, or like, there’s some kind

Mm hmm.

It felt like there was a, it was a currency.

It wasn’t, I mean, for so long, it was not about love. It was not about like, I found my person. It was like,

At all.

goats and I want them.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Which is

Ha ha ha ha ha!

it’s strange that we’ve turned it into this like very fairy tale, like. love centric, like romantic endeavor.

Cause it, I mean, it is in so many ways. And even since we’ve been married, I think like we have had several conversations where I’m like, what they don’t tell you about marriage and should is that. Even now it is absolutely as much a question of like, who do you want to go into business with as it is? Who do you want to like go on dates with?

You know, it’s like,

Yeah. And like snuggle and

Yeah. Yeah. It is snuggling. And it’s also a business contract, you know, it’s like, you’re, You’re combining your bank accounts.

Yes. Couldn’t, could not agree more. And I mean, I’ll share a little bit about my background. Some of the listeners probably know some of it, but, um, so my parents are divorced. I do not think I was like, how is a kid? I was even like, how did these two get together?

I don’t get it. Um, And I actually think that’s part of what’s made me a good therapist working with couples is because, you know, as a kid, I was like able to see the patterns with my parents. And I was like, if dad could just do this and mom could just do this, that would be their path forward. So it’s like this weird gift that I developed as a child.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I remember thinking that it really is two separate things and are, I feel like we’ve kind of conflated them in our society. And so I was always interested in, you know, the love part and maybe sort of the, the spiritual connection or ceremony type thing. But the legal part is such a different animal, you know, it’s like, that’s, I mean, marriage is a legal institution.

And so I just find it so fascinating when people romanticize it and kind of merge the two. Now it’s, of course the two can coexist, right? Like you can have the love and the legal contract, like you’re saying, it’s kind of been both for you guys. But, um, yeah. Yeah. It’s like we just, and then

It’s strange that,

I think is really fascinating.

yes, yes. And it is strange that people don’t fully, I don’t think, I don’t think they think of it as the two branches when they’re going into it, you know, I think so often it really is like, they’re like swept up in the fairy tale of it. And I mean, it’s shocking to me how many, how many couples I’ve heard of, like, Don’t talk about, like, their finances or their life.

Or don’t have, and again, we’re not trying to judge, everyone’s going to kind of have a different situation, but like, the idea that you don’t have a shared bank account, like, to me is, is, I mean, it’s interesting. It’s like, okay, you, you, you know, assumedly you’re, you’re partnering, right? We use the term partner often nowadays, right?

And, and to us, that’s what it is. It is a partnership, right? So that

Mm hmm.

I’m low or I’m, you know, having a tough time, okay, Caitlin stepping up and helping to carry the load and vice versa. And I

Mm hmm.

yeah, just looking at some of the relationships around us that that’s not really seen. And even that it’s like the bank account to me is.

Um, some indication of that are like, okay, we’re, we’re joining forces on this so that we can, uh, really thrive. Um, and yeah, it is, of course, then the counterpoint to that argument is, you know, historically women have been trapped in marriages that they don’t want to be in because they are tied financially to the person who is like the bank account is shared.

They have none of their own money they can’t get out of.

Right.

So, you know, two sides to that.

Well, and I mean, there, you know, and I haven’t done like a ton of research on this, but I know that, you know, way back in the day, the woman was the property of the man. So that’s concerning. There were

yeah.

laws where a man could hit his wife and that was fine. A man could rape his wife and that was fine.

So there’s, you know, there’s a lot of history there. Um, and even, even now, okay.

no, I was gonna say there’s still, uh, so much of that out in the world. And I mean, right now, I mean, I think we’re in a terrifying time where we’re seeing people be more vocal about all of that. Uh, not to get political, but you know, you don’t have to look very far. Um, you know, Harrison Butker out there, Kansas city, my God, uh, love his leg, but I don’t love his mind.

Um, But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, yeah, it’s just a, it’s a scary time that in some ways we’re, we’re stepping backwards. And, and I think a lot of this is rooted in religion. And I think, um, yeah, and I think it’s, it’s this, this push and pull of like us trying to put some, you know, a, a, a small short out into the world to say like, let’s open a conversation, a dialogue here when, uh, simultaneously you have folks going out there and saying the exact opposite and saying.

Actually, no, you should just stay in the household and that is what should make you happy, um, and fulfilled. And, I mean, it’s hilarious. I mean, it’s a hilarious idea. Just come to any city in the world. Come to any, uh, you know, uh, developed city. Town or city. And it’s like, open your eyes, have a conversation.

And that’s, that’s clearly not, uh, that’s not how people want to live nowadays. But, um, but yeah, we’re, we’re just seeing that pushback, which is part of why I think, you know, a movie like this, again, I’m not saying this is, this is the most important thing in the world necessarily, but part of why I think we wanted to

though. I have to say. You guys did a great job.

you know, just contribute to that conversation, um, because I think that’s what it is.

It is a conversation. And. And Caitlin mentioned communication for us and like, that’s, that’s what it’s about. That’s what this movie, I think to me is fundamentally about. It’s about people having, uh, having the conversations, the tough conversations, uh, before they blow up into something that destroys potentially what could be a happy marriage, which was actually an interesting thing before we got married.

Michael, as mentioned, he’s the co star in every seven and, uh, he was a co producer and co writer. He mentioned to us, I don’t know if you remember this, but he mentioned to us, he said, it’s important because right before we got married, he said, it’s important to differentiate between roommate issues and marriage issues and relationship issues.

And we kind of listened to that and said, okay, that’s interesting. And he said, most of our Our arguments are actually roommate issues, right? If you think about like,

Mm hmm.

experienced some, how one washes the dishes, potentially, that might be, might be something where one leaves one’s expired glasses of water, for example.

wonder who does that?

Um, and, and so it was an interesting perspective and honestly, it was really thankful for it because then we were able to go into our, our, you know, our marriage. Being able to sort of compartmentalize and say, Oh, cool. This is not about our relationship. This is about us cohabitating in a certain space together.

And I think the movie, uh, it touches on that a little bit. It’s part of the issues of the couple, central couple in the movie are a roommate issues and, and part of those would be resolved if they just had a conversation about it. Um, and so that’s why we ultimately, we end up doing a performance review every year where we literally sit down.

And have, uh, categories we go through and, and discuss and say, okay, how did, how did you do this year on this category? I mean, we sort of review each other in a very open forum. It’s

love that and I’ve even

yes.

um, cause you know how you go to the doctor for your like annual checkup, right? And we don’t really have that for mental health and we don’t really have that for relationships. I’ve never actually done it, but I’ve had that thought as well.

Like I should, since you’re offering this as like a service. Um,

Cause I do think that couples are like, every time we talk to people about it, they’re like, that’s amazing. But like, I do think that people feel a little stymied about how to facilitate it for themselves, you know? So if they had someone like you to come to where you’re like really mediating the experience, like, yeah, I think that’d be awesome.

And how often are people having arguments, you know, three, four, five, six, seven years into their relationship where they blowing up about something, but what they actually want to say is not that thing. What they’re actually upset about is not that

Oh my

I’m sure you’re digging through

It’s to like decode what people act. Yeah, that’s right. I decode what people actually mean for their partner and then help the partner understand what’s actually happening. But it’s because the way it’s verbalized, is not always clear and you know, can lead to like defensiveness. And then they’re escalating about, you know, whatever’s being said, but really there’s this underlying thing.

Um, and I don’t know if you guys are familiar with the Gottman Relationship Institute. But they do, uh, they’re kind of like the foremost relationship researchers in the U S and they train a lot of couples counselors. So I’ve done like the level one and two training with them. And, um, yeah, they’re kind of like, you know, you got to go with the deeper meaning.

So what I’m always telling people is like, you know, what’s underneath, you know, like what’s the more like vulnerable layer underneath usually that can be scarier, you know, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s like scarier for us to be like less armed and less defensive and softer. Um, but I think that’s like where the actual intimacy happens, you know, and

Yeah. And, and I

therapist, it’s like that, that emotional intimacy is, is necessary.

mm-Hmm, . And I also think it’s, it’s, I should preface like it’s not just when we sit down for our annual performance review, it’s not just us attacking each other and saying, these are all the things you did wrong, . It is a lot of

wouldn’t work. Yeah.

Um, and it, and, and I think that’s part of it too, is so it’s like it’s a trained skill set.

And certainly when I. We started our relationship, um, and it was long distance. There was a lot more work that I had to put in on my end in terms of my self work. Um, because this was a, this was in many ways, my first kind of, I guess, adult relationship. This was a serious thing. And if you’re going to be, you know, dating somebody who lives, 3, 000 miles away.

That’s a pretty serious thing. Um, and I, I wasn’t prepared for it. So thankfully Caitlin was patient and, um, and forgiving and, uh, and also a good communicator. And so I do think like, that is a trained and developed skill set, and it’s hard to just dive into something like that. And like you said. Not be defensive and, and to be willing to say, take ownership and say, yeah, I do need to do better.

And, and like part of our performance review is taking an opportunity to review ourselves too. And to say, you know, to go in and say, I think I haven’t been slacking this year on X, Y, Z. Um, so it’s, but again, it’s like, that’s, that’s a lot of like emotional awareness at times and we’re certainly not perfect.

Um, but it’s,

Mm hmm. What? So I would love to hear from both of you. Like, how did you get to that point? Because I can imagine a lot of people listening being like, okay, this sounds great in theory, but also like horrifying, like, so scary to like face that or like, get that feedback, like so directly and kind of like, or like get a score in a certain category or something.

Um, and I, you know, I’m thinking you have to probably overcome some ego. You have to be able to take like radical responsibility. Like, how did you guys get there? Get to that point.

trying to think like where the initial idea came from. It was my idea. I’m sure it was her idea. I mean, this, this may, this may be a cop out. I know. So my parents are both teachers. Caitlin’s mom is a teacher. Um, so there, there, there’s probably

mom’s a teacher too.

There you go. You get it. Yeah, but there’s probably something in our brains that that says, okay, how can we I mean specifically I think it was I also have a corporate day job and we have annual performance reviews as part of that.

And I think I was really struck by the fact that. Um, when you’re forced to just sit down and the whole goal of the meeting is talking about how the last year went suddenly, whether or not you have a ton to say, like, your feet are kind of held to the fire a little bit in a way that, like, it’s very easy to just kind of like gloss over stuff or.

not acknowledge these minor hiccups or not praise or celebrate these great victories. Um, just in service of like continuing, like pushing forward, doing the job, doing the job. So I think marriage is similar in the sense that you’re like showing up every day, doing the marriage, doing the marriage. And sometimes you just need a moment to literally be like, let’s just sit with each other for these couple hours.

And the goal is. Looking at the last year and seeing how we did, you know, and I also think that, uh, I don’t know if we really had too much experience in this hands on. But, um, some of the small things, some of the roommate issues that Michael was talking about, um, there’s not a, there’s not really a great time or a safe space.

To bring that up, right? Because for example, I’ll give you a life experience here. Uh, when we first moved in together, we have, we got some new knives, a set of, you know, they’re not really a set, but we have some new knives. Right. And, um, and they’re nice knives. Now I did not have nice knives growing up.

Okay. What, I don’t know that that tells you anything about my backstory, but maybe it does. Um, and, and so. What I would do is I would, we don’t have a dishwasher, so I would wash the knife and then I would set it on the drying rack. And Caitlin, uh, I, very quickly educated me and said, if you do this, They’re gonna have water spots.

How dare you? Well, more specifically, it, it’s not good for the ne it, the not good for the knife does not stay. You must dry, you must dry the knife after, immediately after you’ve washed the knife and . Right? Well, well, when we move it together, Heather, I’ll tell you all and, and right like

you. That would be great.

could listen to this and, and, and certainly in the moment, I, I think we ultimately laughed more than anything else.

But I, I guarantee you there are couples out there where. That would spiral into like an argument or that would be something where the one partner would hear that and be like Wow, you’re really nitpicking me right now. Now again, we laughed about it. We still laugh about it to this day. Um, but like there’s not a great opportunity to do that.

’cause if Caitlin had come over right as I was setting it down or walking away from the wet knife, for example, and then said that I would’ve felt potentially, I could’ve felt like it was an attack. Right. Um, so to be able to kind of, and, and, and that wouldn’t have been how she would’ve been approaching it.

She would’ve just probably been approaching it, I’m assuming, saying. I want to let him know and educate him so that we have, we maintain our quality of knives. Um, but if that’s something that she had, this is a micro, this is a micro

secrets from Alex and Caitlin.

right? Exactly. But if she had reserved that and then been able to bring it up at the performance review.

Um, where it’s a safe space and where you’ve had time to sit with this thing to be able to say, okay, how’s the right, what’s the right way to present this? Right? Knowing that it’s a silly thing, but like, you know, let’s, let’s talk about it. Um, that is, I think that’s part of where it came from as well as being able to say, okay, we don’t want little things to be blown up into big things.

So let’s reserve an appropriate space for them.

Yeah. I love that and, you know, it’s, it is so funny like hearing from now and now it’ll exist forever on the podcast. Um, but I, you know, you guys are saying some things that are part of like the Gottman training basically. So like. One of the things you just said is kind of like the Gottman principle of a softened startup.

And it’s like how you start a conversation has like a 90 percent accuracy in terms of like how the rest of the conversation goes. And so like the knife thing is a great example where it could be like this little thing and someone feels attacked and then they’re like, you’re always picking on me or you’re always nagging or you’re always critical.

And then it turns into this whole thing. Right. But if someone, you kind of just got at it too. If someone’s just like, Hey, I know you’re really into these knives and just so you know, like, I want you to know this so that the knives like stay nice or whatever. So it’s like when you state your positive intention or when you kind of say, here’s where I’m coming from, that really helps and can like eliminate some of the defensiveness and escalating.

So, um, I love that you guys just gave a real world example of that. That’s awesome. There it

we, this, this is a podcast all about sex, right? We’re getting as intimate as we can get. They’re

mean, but I do really appreciate also that you’re talking about, it’s like you’re having multiple relationships in one, you know, it’s like you’re having the roommate relationship. You’re having, um, sometimes a co parent relationship. You know, I see a lot of couples where there, this is some of the stuff we talk about surprisingly because, you know, people have become expert roommates and co parents.

but have lost sort of the, the romance and the sexual spark, um, because they’ve gotten so bogged down in that. And so kind of like I was saying, with your, you know, uh, performance review, um, like you need to have some emotional intelligence and a good ego strength in a way and not get too defensive to do it.

So like that is a lot of the work I do with people is like creating that foundation so that, you know, you can have the vulnerable discussions and so you can feel close and so you can, you know, rest and be lighthearted. Um, and then that’s what facilitates the sex for most people, right? Some people don’t care.

They could be in the middle of a fight and have great sex. You know, those are not the people who call me. So,

like, it’s going fine.

right. Right. Exactly. They’re kind of like, we fight, but we have really good sex. So it’s fine. Um, but sometimes those people will contact me just for the communication help. They’re like, you know, we don’t need it in the area of sex, but we still want to work on our intimacy in other ways.

Um, but yeah, so I, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the film too. Um, it was so unique because there’s only three people in it, right on screen. And it was UK and Alex, you, you weren’t, you weren’t the guy, were you?

No, he directed. No. Yeah. I, I

Yeah. Okay. So Alex was off camera. So it was you, Caitlin, and it was your fake husband.

And then it was the fake government guy.

Much better at a hair. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, but it was like, and it was in one room the whole time, which was so interesting, but there was like such an arc.

Yeah, I mean, that was also very much like the goal when we, when we sat down and we’re like, okay, we want to collaborate. We want to make something. Like, we were all feeling like a little stir crazy and wanted to do a creative project. That was also like, part of the, the goal and the mission was, was just like, okay, we want to make a short film.

And we’ve made so many in the past, and they always been Are like, so unwieldy, like, there’s just so many elements, like, even if it’s a 10 minute film, like, there’s just like, always so much that goes into it. And so we really were like, okay, yeah, we were like, the goal is one room, us as actors, and maybe one other person, like, one moment in time, like, one slice of a story.

Um, and And it was like a fun challenge to be like, these are the guardrails. Like this is, this is the sandbox. How do we play within it? Um, and it really kind of helped shape and inform, cause a lot of the notes we got actually about the scripture at the beginning was like people being excited about the universe that we had created and wanting to build it out and be like, it would be so fun to see the couple at this or do the, and we were like.

Totally. That’s the feature film version or like that’s the series version. This is the short film. So it can only be one scene, one room, three actors, you know? Um, which is like a fun challenge. Yeah. And that, and that’s, I mean, we

I love it.

we could have another three hour podcast talking about, uh, indie filmmaking in and of itself, but, uh, you know, as, as an independent,

I’m a little curious.

as independent filmmakers, um, it’s yeah. A lot of.

Could this get picked up? Like, And become a feature film? Is that a thing that happens?

Absolutely could. So, so, um, so right now we just released, so the film just, uh, released last week on, um, it’s a YouTube channel called crafty. So, uh, so folks can go over there and check it out. But, um, in terms of kind of a future for it, I think that there’s, there’s always two worlds when you’re making a short, if you are envisioning that short continuing on and not all short films have that, that trajectory.

Sometimes it’s like, oh, that is. It’s a perfect short and that’s the right format for it. But for this world, I think there’s, there’s absolutely two versions that we’ve at least tossed out. Um, you know, one being we’re following one couple in a feature film and we are exploring their relationship at home.

And then, you know, potentially what it looks like when they enter this world of this, um, this marriage auditor and then, you know, what the aftermath of, of that is. Um, but I also think we’ve talked about and what interests us is the idea of more of an anthology series where you’re following different couples in each episode and exploring what, uh, what those couples are going through, right?

And how within this, this reality, this world, um, they, they’re able to navigate their, their relationship, either difficulties or lack thereof. Um, and so I think. There’s, and there’s a thousand variations of that in a, you know, in between, I think. Um, but it’s also, I think we’re saying that, like, the making shorts, that the challenge in indie filmmaking and in producing shorts is that there’s really not like a great, like, unless you’re building upon that, unless it’s a proof of concept for something bigger, there’s not really a, a great, you know, Way for those to, to like live on or be seen like outside of the festival circuit.

Um, so an aggregator like crafty, the, this, this channel that we’re streaming every seven on is like an example of like, sometimes there’s a platform that like wants to host your film, but like

Oh, cool.

audience, the viewership for shorts is just like outside of festivals is just like not. Super strong, which is wild nowadays because our attention spans have gotten shorter and shorter and shorter.

And so you think short films would

hmm

The perfect thing but

It’s so true

Yeah, I’m like you guys don’t have the patience for a 90 minute feature like what watch a 10 minute short

It is kind of surprising and I mean this was my first time Ever going to a film festival and my whole thought going was like, oh, I feel so sophisticated. This is like an artsy thing

Did you enjoy your experience? Did you have fun?

I do. I thought it was great. I mean, um, I really liked yours. I really liked a couple of the other ones. I think there was like six or seven films in the grouping.

There was maybe one that I would like so so on. But like generally I was like, we picked a good bunch.

Well, and that’s, we always, so we’ve gone to a lot of film festivals and we always talk about that. We like going to the Schwartz Blocks because it’s a grab bag for sure. And you know, you’re not going to like all of them. That’s just the, the math doesn’t math. Um, but if you are going to a film festival and you walk into a feature film and you know, 15 minutes in, you’re like, I don’t love this.

Sure. You can leave or you’re, you’re stuck there for 90 minutes of a film you don’t like, whereas we.

Exactly.

If you don’t like it, it’ll be over in 10 minutes. Yeah.

That’s my thought

like the weather in that place where the weather changes all the time. That’s right. I don’t remember what city it is, but it’s Waiting for government.

Sure.

Yeah. So interesting. So, I mean, having created this, having done some background research, even like seeing people’s reactions to it, and I realize we are not the government, we are not deciding this on the podcast today, but like, what are your thoughts about the institution of marriage? Like, what do you think could be revisited or should be revisited?

That’s a good question. I think, I think about, we were having a conversation with a couple friends, um, and we were talking about divorce. And I think it was in light of this, this short, we were talking to them and I was suggesting that like the reason that like couples that couples stay together longer than they necessarily want to or should is because they’re not like communicating, um, and not like addressing that there’s like a problem and, and our friend was like, I actually think that it’s money.

He was like, I actually think that it’s so expensive to get divorced and to go through the process of getting divorced that like couples just grin and bear it and just like they weather it and they just go, well, I don’t have another option right now. Um, so, so the part of it was that it

some people, yeah.

stripping away all, like you said, all the red tape, all the complication, all the like financial burden of like dissolving a partnership and just being like, if it was an option. Then at least you could make the choice based on your feelings about the relationship as opposed to these like extraneous, uh, you know, it’s, it’s not about the finances. And, and I also think it’s, it’s like, listen, is there a version of the every seven world we created where you have to take a test that, that you’re answering questions about your partner to make sure that you’re actually a good fit?

Like, that’s the opposite of, I think, what this film speaks to. And to me, it actually is less about how can, how can we affect the institution and more about like, just as a couple, how can we be sure that this is right for us? And I think a lot of people like get married. I mean, how many friends do we all have that got married in their early twenties because like that was what you did, you’re supposed to do.

And then they get divorced by, you know, 30 and it’s like, Oh yeah, because I, I, I wasn’t a fully thinking human being yet with my opinions. And I didn’t, I didn’t know how,

about opening their marriage.

right. Right. And, and so I think

get a lot of people. Who got married early who do that? Yeah,

sure. Well, because that’s probably one of one of their first, if not their first, Sexual partner, right? So then there’s a lot of like, what have I not experienced like there’s so

Mm hmm.

You know, and I think yeah figuring out like what version of it works for you You know and if there were variations sort of legally that would be more interesting too.

But That that to me is really what it’s about less about like any sort of government interference because you know, lord knows we don’t want But uh, but yeah, I feel like figuring out what the variations are and also like normalizing it right i’m sure For a lot of people i’m projecting but i’m sure when they come to you and say we’re talking about opening up our marriage There’s a stigma there associated with that.

Um, and a pressure from, from sort of society to, to be a certain way. And I’m sure it also depends on the circles that people travel, but to be able to normalize situations that are, you know, at the moment, not perceived as such, I think that would be, that that’s a route I could see.

Yeah.

don’t have the

Yeah, I think about

that.

No.

don’t know that, yeah, I don’t know that we’re going to come up with a solution today. But, you know, some brainstorming is interesting. You know, I think that the idea even like the long distance thing I’ve heard of a married couple living in two different countries and like nothing was wrong with the relationship, but I think one was in Mexico one was in the US and You know people who sleep in different bedrooms Which sometimes is because the marriage is not going well sometimes is not and I’m a big fan of Eckhart Tolle and he, he’s like a spiritual teacher and he and his wife, uh, have separate houses that are like in the same neighborhood or next to each other or something like that, you know?

And so he’s even talked about like, yeah, like as people are kind of like on this path of, you know, spiritual awakening that sometimes just like more space can be helpful. Um, and so I think that’s interesting too, just this idea of like space and like keeping your independent identity. Um, But then also having intimacy and closeness and kind of deciding, I’m like, what degree of independence, what degree of closeness.

And

Well, and, you know, two separate houses really solves the roommate problem. You deal with your knives however you want to deal with your knives in your

my God.

house. And it is, it is

true.

It is a balance, right? Because, like, ultimately when you’re saying, Okay, we’re gonna, we’re gonna partner in some way, shape, or form. Whether it’s, you know, Legally marry or whether you’re just going to start dating or whatever you want to call it There’s there’s no version of that where you’re not sacrificing something where you’re not compromising Something right?

And so I think like

real.

right and so I think that’s that’s the That’s the thing is to to realize like am I a person who even wants to do that, right? um, and And so yeah, so even you’re talking about like the two separate houses like That may work for some people, but, but for a lot of people, it’s like, well, no, that’s that’s, that’s not a reality for me.

And I need you to compromise X, Y, and Z, because this is the most important thing to me. And I think, again, that goes back to like, self awareness and self work and realizing what your core values are. Right? And,

Mm hmm.

and then communicating with somebody and saying, do we share those core values? Because I think when people don’t, like, that’s where you see the issues.

It’s like, well, this really matters to me, but it doesn’t matter to you. It’s not a shocker when you start to argue. About those things.

It isn’t! And, and sometimes people are so surprised at their differences. And I, and I kind of think like, you’re literally two separate humans, like completely separate life histories, like leading up to meeting each other, you know, like different family, probably different city you were brought up in.

Like maybe there’s some cultural differences. Maybe there’s an age, like there’s so many, of course there’s going to be differences. like, how do you want to navigate them?

I

So, all right. Well, any, Oh, go ahead.

no, I was just going to say, I also think like, I think for me, like if there’s one takeaway from. The every seventh thing that’s like not about me changing like government policy or anything. It is kind of that sense of like, just put yourself in a room where the goal is talking. Yeah. It’s like addressing the elephant, you know, just, just give yourself the space to just sometimes with or without the help of a mediator, like just to look at it, to like put it under the microscope and examine it and just see if there’s.

Mm hmm.

You know, you might find that it’s past saving or you might find that it just is like a degree off and like that a slight shift is suddenly like answers all the problems and changes everything, you know, I think that’s. Yeah, that’s a good bow. Thank you. Uh, so you can check out the film right now,

that that’s awesome. Thank you guys so much for being here. It’s just like such an important topic to explore that I don’t think gets questioned enough. And so I really loved every 7. I hope that people listening will also check it out and have their have their minds expanded a bit. So if people want to connect with you guys, if they want to check out the film, like, where can they connect with you?

YouTube specifically via the crafty, uh, channel. Um, if they want to connect with us, uh, you can check out either of our websites. Um, I think I’m www. alexanno. com, very creative. And I’m www. thecaitlinmorris. com because CaitlinMorris. com was taken. Classic.

Uh

Uh, and then you can

My name is also taken now.

Terrible.

Rude. Um,

I used to have it, too, and I let it go. It’s

No! Some big companies

I

in and they took it. Um, and then obviously you can look us up on Instagram as well. Um, I think I’m at

Okay, cool.

and Caitlin is at, at her name backwards. S I R R O M

Oh, tough one.

Which, which took me

We will just link to them.

Yeah. Perfect. There

we’ll link so people don’t have to try and spell Morris and Caitlin backwards.

Thanks

Awesome. Thank you guys so much. And thank you everyone for listening. We will catch you all next Monday for another new episode of Ask the Sex Therapist. Bye, everybody.